[T:V] Arena - Thoughts and Issues

Apotheosis

Veteran XV
As I understand it, Arena will be a built in map type for T:V, and seeing as to how much I loved Arena in T1, I certainly hope IG does it right :)

There are a few issues in T1 Arena there were very annoying for most players. I just wanted to list them out here, and hope that one (or more) of the Devs would have something to say about some of the items.

1) LASER RIFLES
First of all, sniping was a big problem in T1 Arena. Before the use of Laser Rifles was limited, almost everyone would snipe in outdoor maps. After a while, several modifications were made to a couple servers, which allowed for the reduction of Laser Rifle damage done by about 40% and/or limited each team to two Laser Rifles.

In general, I really dislike the idea of modifying weapons across game types, and I am a great proponent of being as consistent as possible throughout. However, in this case, I felt that the damage reduction was entirely necessary. In some maps, it would literally be a race to see which team could get out of the base first, so that they could have the best sniping positions, and the first snipes out. This led to some players dying within just 5 seconds of leaving the base.

I also did not like the idea of limiting the Laser Rifles to just two purchases per team for similar reasons, and also because I witnessed one too many TKs for that last Laser Rifle.

Honestly, I don't know which position is the better. I personally would not mind having the total removal of the Laser Rifle from the Arena game type. I think the main attraction to Arena should be the close combat and team oriented play, and I feel that Laser Rifles detract from these "features" too much.


2) HEAVY ARMOR
In T1 Arena, Heavy Armor was disallowed from use for good reasons. The Mortar was much too powerful, spam was a problem, and the Heavy was too overpowering in terms of armor in indoor maps. I can't see the Heavy Armor being in T:V Arena, but this also brings up the issue of consistency among game types.


3) INVENTORY USE
In T1 Arena, Inventory Stations were limited to two uses per round in order to prevent players from running back and forth between the stations every they they got hurt. Also, all Base Inventory Stations and Generators were invincible. I take it that T:V will have a similar implementation.


4)TEAM KILLS (DAMAGE)
TKing is an issue in every game type, but especially so in Arena, where each player gets one life. The most annoying aspect of Arena for me was not the accidental TKing (I can understand that) -- it was the behavior of some players who just liked bringing other players' life down to less than half intentionally, just to be an annoyance. In fact, I think this was the perfect form of annoyance for this game type. The TKer would serve no penalty (and would be having his form of "fun"), and in many cases would aggravate the victim to the point of them TKing back, sometimes resulting in the victim being kicked. A major problem is that the admin has to be on the same team as the TKer in order to see this happening and know who to kick, so I propose some kind of direct penalty for the TKer. Perhaps a percentage of damage done to other players will also be taken by the TKer? Or maybe if the TKer takes more than 50% of a victim's health down in a round, the victim will be free to TK the TKer on that round and the next, without penalty. :shrug:

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Item (4) in this list was not very common, admittedly, but I felt that it was one of the greatest annoyances in T1 Arena. I wouldn't be terribly bothered if no action was taken to remedy the issue (4). I mainly just wanted to see what the Dev though about issue (1). :)

If anyone has any other thoughts or issues about what Arena will be like in T:V, please bring them out :)

Edit01: Updated issue (3). Added last paragraph. Grammar.
 
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IMO, many of those problems stem from poor map design... and not just in arena either, CTF too. If people make high visibility maps with little means of concealment, it's not surprising peeps whore the laser--especially since people's connections are getting better and better and will continue to do so.
 
Well, of course this is up to map design, but the devs will certainly be setting the precedent with the default arena maps, but why not just leave full inventory stations out? Give the team an indestructible (or not, I don't play arena, not sure of the significance) portable inv so they can heal and change weapons or whatever (medium spawn = no rifle). And they only have 5000 energy if portable invs go the way of T1.

As far as TK'ing, would I be crazy to suggest TD off? ;)
 
GIMPbeowulf said:
IMO, many of those problems stem from poor map design... and not just in arena either, CTF too. If people make high visibility maps with little means of concealment, it's not surprising peeps whore the laser--especially since people's connections are getting better and better and will continue to do so.

As far as the Laser Rifle issue goes, I don't think it's because of poor map design. I think it has more to do with the killing power of the Laser Rifle. In CTF this is not as big a problem because the primary objective is not to kill other players, and respawns are quick and unlimited. Furthermore, in CTF, enemies could come from any direction. All this is quite the opposite in Arena, as the primary objective is to kill the other team, you only get one life and you must wait for the round to finish in order to respawn, and also, you generally know which direction the enemy will come from.

Before the limitations of the Laser Rifle were put in for T1 Arena, almost everyone would snipe in just about every outdoor map.
 
I think that restriction of players to medium armor-only should handle the vast majority of the problems you're considering Apo. Also, make it so players can only select medium armor loadouts and SPAWN in those loadouts, and you remove the problems of inventories. Just add an ammo (recovery) station here or there for a quick reload, and voila, finished gametype.
 
Ixiterra said:
Well, of course this is up to map design, but the devs will certainly be setting the precedent with the default arena maps, but why not just leave full inventory stations out? Give the team an indestructible (or not, I don't play arena, not sure of the significance) portable inv so they can heal and change weapons or whatever (medium spawn = no rifle). And they only have 5000 energy if portable invs go the way of T1.

Just FYI, the normal Base Inventory Stations and Generators are indestructible in T1 Arena.

I left portable inventory stations and other deployables out of my post intentionally because I though that had more to do with what the mapmaker had in mind for the map. In T1 Arena, it is not possible to purchase most deployables (Deployable Inventory Station and Deployable Turrets included), but there are one or two T1 Arena maps in which there are spawn points designated for Deployable Turrets. In T:V, this should not be an issue since it seems like deployables will not be purchasable from Inventory Stations in *any* game type.

But having a map with *only* Portable Inventory Stations (and not Base Inventory Stations) as you suggested, is a very interesting idea and one that I had not though of.

Ixiterra said:
As far as TK'ing, would I be crazy to suggest TD off? ;)
Yes :)
 
Zoolooman said:
I think that restriction of players to medium armor-only should handle the vast majority of the problems you're considering Apo. Also, make it so players can only select medium armor loadouts and SPAWN in those loadouts, and you remove the problems of inventories. Just add an ammo (recovery) station here or there for a quick reload, and voila, finished gametype.

Yeah, I had not considered the removal of *both* the Light and Heavy Armors from Arena, and forgot for a moment that you will spawn in a Medium Armor in T:V.

I don't particularly like the idea of removing the Light Armor from play in Arena though, and also don't like the inability to switch loadouts midround, as you suggested.
 
Call me crazy, but I think the Heavy armor should have never been removed from Arena. I don't know if it would be that overpowering (and we won't know until T:V beta either), but even if it is on some maps, people should just overcome their fear of the change and dress up in heavy for once... something that everyone uses can't be that overpowered... :shrug:
 
Ama - It had to do with mortar spam.

Apo - I imagine that inventories could be left in. I still think that people should start the round spawned in the favorite of their choice, adusted to be in medium armor. I don't think the light armor should be included, simply because it has a laser rifle.
 
I see that Zooloo... oh well, I don't know how severe that was, but it must have been pretty grim if they had to cut the Heavy armor.... Then again, maybe you could leave the Heavy and remove the mortar only? :shrug: Heck if I know though, I don't play arena...
 
The problem with balancing for arena is that players only have one life. In CTF, a mortar or a laser rifle round are few and far between. You can laugh off the near or instant death because you'll respawn two seconds later.

But in arena, just one lucky mortar round or one laser rifle shot and a player who is far away from the attacker has now just blown away the vast majority of the poor victim's one precious life.

It is the same reason mines were taken out of arena. The game is about survival, and insta-kill or near insta-kill shots take away most of the reason people play the game - to be a better fighter.
 
That makes taking out the mortar only instead of the whole heavy armor seem like a good idea. Or at least nerf it like the laser rifle got nerfed.
 
Turning TD off in arena will open it up for mindless nade spam and you won;t even have to worry about killing your own teammates...
 
The mortar isn't the only reason to remove the heavy. Ever seen groundpounders who just shield pack and chaingun? In T1 Arena, people still do it with the medium armor. The heavy armor, having more ammo and more health and more energy for the shield pack, was even more brutally effective.

All that said, T:V's pack system, ammo system and armor system are different. I just think that changing a weapon's function for another gametype is a bad idea. I'd rather the weapon or the armor be unavailable wholesale.
 
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Slayer_Allen said:
Turning TD off in arena will open it up for mindless nade spam and you won;t even have to worry about killing your own teammates...

I have to agree with Slayer here. There isn't a more gameplay destroying thing one can do than turn off TD in Arena.
 
I was a die hard T1 Arena fan. Arena is about dueling and trying to get your opponent away from their team. It's not about sitting on the wall in WalledIn and sniping. Nor is it about spamming the base entrance with mortars so the other team can't get out of their base. It's about hand to hand combat.

The heavy was taken out very early in arena, so I don't know how well a heavy would be in this gametype. I can't even think of a reason why someone would want a heavy. In CTF, a heavy is useful because it can ski fairly fast. But once the heavy stops in the middle of the field, they're toast. Maybe a heavy with shield pack would be useful in indoor maps. However, running into a heavy with shield pack in the hallways of ArenaUnderTheHill would not be very fun.

The laser rifle should just be taken out of the game. Arena is not about sniping someone 2 km away. Anyways, there's my little 1 minute rant.
 
just a thought about the laser rifle..
we don't even know, yet, the damage of the laser, and even if we did, it could be balanced according to the needs of the game.
Regardless of that though, we can assume the laser will be fairly powerful..map design is big in controlling the problem...personally i have never seen big outdoor maps full of space and void of obstacles as true arena maps to start with. arena is supposed to be about a determined space, and about fighting skills/techniques. obstacles, and the use of firing off of/hiding behind, and such, are a big part of arena to me.

just my .02
 
Yeah, I agree there that the laser rifle has no place in arena whatsoever... as for the heavy... I think I'd need to playtest that to be sure if it's overpowered... damn I'm a stubborn little fvck... :)
 
I don't play competitive arena, so sorry if this is a mindnumbingly stupid suggestion:

In lakrabbit, I think the chaingun damage scaled down with the number of players. Would that be a useful addition to arena?
 
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