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Reload this Page [Religion] "I want my kids to decide for themselves"
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Togowack
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161 - 11-20-2008, 23:56
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I feel that a great sacrifice has been made for me. There is a God in heaven who has answered every prayer I have prayed and continually offered tangible protection against everything that the rest of the world worries about.

The only thing I worry about is that his calling won't come while I'm young and I will continue to age without fulfilling my life's true call.
 
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SuicideTaxi
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162 - 11-21-2008, 00:13
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What?
 
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ZOD
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163 - 11-21-2008, 00:15
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I like cheese doodles.
 
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Last edited by ZOD; 11-23-2008 at 16:10..
Mabelrode
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164 - 11-21-2008, 00:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prowler View Post
In the example I gave, yes. Respect for your fellow human being is a universal moral.



Not at all. A universal moral is still a universal moral. Those that do not follow it are doing wrong by its standard. It doesn't mean it no longer applies.


Again, a universal moral is not subject to those who choose to live by it, rather those who exist are subject to it. They are either living by it or against it. A societal moral would fall if a society chose not to practice it. A universal moral does not.


Because I examine the morals from my own point of reference. There are quite a few that match up with what I believe. Respect, peace, and tolerance to name a few. The same ends are reached by different means.

I have to clarify though that I do not agree with the means by which they are reached, and there are countless ends I take issue with as well. That still does not change the point that some ethical truths are able to be derived from religion.
Essentially you are 'making up' what is a universal moral, and basing it on your own subjective ideas, thus defeating your assertion that the moral is universal.

If something is universal it is self-evident. What you are describing is not, since in your example, we have an established cannibal culture that exists with this concept - eating of outsiders or whomever - as normal and moral. 2+2=4 is universal. Eat your fellow creature, or don't, is not, especially since you already allow as a given a society that does not see it as immoral. A universal moral occurs in all cultures.

To further convince you that you're wrong, how many cultures do you know or can site that go around THINKING ONE OF THEIR OWN ESTABLISHED ACTIONS IS 'EVIL'?

In other words, do the cannibals giggle with vile glee that they are taking moral advantage of their victims as they eat them?

Non-psychotics/sociopaths don't standardize acts they themselves consider 'evil'. Societies filled with such, don't exist.

You're wrong, dude.
 
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Last edited by Mabelrode; 11-21-2008 at 00:39..
The Prowler
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165 - 11-21-2008, 00:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
Essentially you are 'making up' what is a universal moral, and basing it on your own subjective ideas, thus defeating your assertion that the moral is universal.

If something is universal it is self-evident. What you are describing is not, since in your example, we have an established cannibal culture that exists with this concept - eating of outsiders or whomever - as normal and moral. 2+2=4 is universal. Eat your fellow creature, or don't, is not, especially since you already allow as a given a society that does not see it as immoral. A universal moral occurs in all cultures.

To further convince you that you're wrong, how many cultures do you know or can site that go around THINKING ONE OF THEIR OWN ESTABLISHED ACTIONS IS 'EVIL'?

In other words, do the cannibals giggle with vile glee that they are taking moral advantage of their victims as they eat them?

Non-psychotics/sociopaths don't standardize acts they themselves consider 'evil'. Societies filled with such, don't exist.

You're wrong, dude.
Categorical imperative.
 
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Togowack
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166 - 11-21-2008, 00:52
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Some of you people categorize anything you don't understand with being a drunken moron?

I bet you are the same people calling yourselves open minded.
 
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Mabelrode
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167 - 11-21-2008, 00:55
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Originally Posted by The Prowler View Post
Categorical imperative.
I just read the definition of this phrase according to Kant, and it shows you are wrong.
 
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High Fidelity
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168 - 11-21-2008, 00:59
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Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
Some of you people categorize anything you don't understand with being a drunken moron?

I bet you are the same people calling yourselves open minded.
Anyone who sits outside the point of centrism is close-minded by reason. Simply because someone can have a conversation about sensitive matters like religion doesn't make them rational and open-minded. This is inherent in the fact that there is a preconceived notion before any conversation ever gets started. Before any conversation starts, all parties know that the likelihood that the other participants could change their mind is so incredibly slim, that the conversation will only be an opportunity for everyone to use as many big words as they can to sound as smart as possible.

This is proven by all of the "open-minded" people that famous philosophers and scientists like Ayn Rand and Richard Dawkins would invite to interview sit-downs. People who thought themselves truly open-minded are reduced to "Just because! I know God is up there! What gives you the right to denounce him like you're God!"
 
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Togowack
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169 - 11-21-2008, 01:06
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Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
Anyone who sits outside the point of centrism is close-minded by reason. Simply because someone can have a conversation about sensitive matters like religion doesn't make them rational and open-minded. This is inherent in the fact that there is a preconceived notion before any conversation ever gets started. Before any conversation starts, all parties know that the likelihood that the other participants could change their mind is so incredibly slim, that the conversation will only be an opportunity for everyone to use as many big words as they can to sound as smart as possible.

This is proven by all of the "open-minded" people that famous philosophers and scientists like Ayn Rand and Richard Dawkins would invite to interview sit-downs. People who thought themselves truly open-minded are reduced to "Just because! I know God is up there! What gives you the right to denounce him like you're God!"
because it's all talk. Talk is meaningless unless you are willing to back it up. False religion is easily broken because it is words and rules.

Pilate himself in the New Testament affirmed this by saying 'they are arguing about words to do with their own religion.' to him, a man of authority, the words had no meaning. He found no basis for a charge against Jesus, but it was the Jews who held some meaning to the words and Jesus was able to use words to destroy them.

How did he do this? The same way words build up or destroy here on Tribal war. The same reason most people are going to ignore the post you just made.
 
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Mabelrode
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170 - 11-21-2008, 01:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
because it's all talk. Talk is meaningless unless you are willing to back it up. False religion is easily broken because it is words and rules.

Pilate himself in the New Testament affirmed this by saying 'they are arguing about words to do with their own religion.' to him, a man of authority, the words had no meaning. He found no basis for a charge against Jesus, but it was the Jews who held some meaning to the words and Jesus was able to use words to destroy them.

How did he do this? The same way words build up or destroy here on Tribal war. The same reason most people are going to ignore the post you just made.
???

Anything you know about Christianity is filtered through Saul of Tarsus, who had lots to gain by being the interpretive head of the new cult. The NT may or may not contain the real words of any of its characters, written by someone who never met the main character, nor most of the other ones.

And since Jesus was the one who died, who did he destroy, exactly?
 
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High Fidelity
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171 - 11-21-2008, 01:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
because it's all talk. Talk is meaningless unless you are willing to back it up. False religion is easily broken because it is words and rules.

Pilate himself in the New Testament affirmed this by saying 'they are arguing about words to do with their own religion.' to him, a man of authority, the words had no meaning. He found no basis for a charge against Jesus, but it was the Jews who held some meaning to the words and Jesus was able to use words to destroy them.

How did he do this? The same way words build up or destroy here on Tribal war. The same reason most people are going to ignore the post you just made.
I'm with you on this point. From what I've seen, religious threads bring out those posters who love to denounce God, but obviously haven't distanced themselves from Christian based religions. Not in the sense that they stop going to church, but that it is very obvious that they are still molded towards a system based on Christian faith. Perhaps some of them are just being controversial, but I am willing to bet that several are just lost and have yet to find something that makes sense of those things that religion doesn't answer for them.
 
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Togowack
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172 - 11-21-2008, 01:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
???

Anything you know about Christianity is filtered through Saul of Tarsus, who had lots to gain by being the interpretive head of the new cult. The NT may or may not contain the real words of any of its characters, written by someone who never met the main character, nor most of the other ones.

And since Jesus was the one who died, who did he destroy, exactly?
Well then how do you decide whether or not somebody actually said something? You end up having to either discount the entire bible or take it for what it is.

By destroy, he destroyed what the Jews believed in and essentially what they were, since they lived what they believed. He forced them into a position where they demanded his death.
 
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ZOD
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173 - 11-21-2008, 01:15
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I like cheese doodles.
 
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Last edited by ZOD; 11-23-2008 at 16:10..
Mabelrode
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174 - 11-21-2008, 01:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
I'm with you on this point. From what I've seen, religious threads bring out those posters who love to denounce God, but obviously haven't distanced themselves from Christian based religions. Not in the sense that they stop going to church, but that it is very obvious that they are still molded towards a system based on Christian faith. Perhaps some of them are just being controversial, but I am willing to bet that several are just lost and have yet to find something that makes sense of those things that religion doesn't answer for them.
I am a polytheist who believes in more Gods than you.

And even I know where to call bull****. Nobody is lost, they simply recognize the idiocy and falsehood of a black/white system that you cream your jeans following, believing yourself superior over the sinners you perceive are persecuting you as one of God's chosen..
 
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arcadus
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175 - 11-21-2008, 01:17
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to the OP:

you have a good point, but do you take your kids to church every week and make them listen to sermons and bull**** like that?
 
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Mabelrode
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176 - 11-21-2008, 01:19
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Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
Well then how do you decide whether or not somebody actually said something? You end up having to either discount the entire bible or take it for what it is.

By destroy, he destroyed what the Jews believed in and essentially what they were, since they lived what they believed. He forced them into a position where they demanded his death.
I measure what literary scholars think of the authenticity of a specific text, then meander about the sources myself, and combine the two to draw my own conclusions. These conclusions indicate what I said.

I discount the entire Bible as anything but myth and hearsay.

He ''forced them into a position'' where they demanded his death? There's a clever guy. But, only if the story is true, which it appears it isn't.

He didn't destroy ****, because the Jews exist today as one of the most resistant cultures on Earth. And Jesus WAS a Jew.
 
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Togowack
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177 - 11-21-2008, 01:20
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Originally Posted by ZOD View Post
Umm, Jews still believe the same **** they always did and still exist. Seems to me Jesus is failsauce
Quite right. I was speaking of the ones who were false, not the genuine ones. The reason I think he took them on so hard was because the jews were called to be the people of God, but the Jews who were in control were hurting the people and just building up their own egos.

Recall that he had a conversation with Nicodemus, and several other Jews, who he did not condemn in this way, but admonished.
 
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Togowack
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178 - 11-21-2008, 01:22
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When a person has been defeated in the spirit and mind, I consider them to be destroyed, especially through the eyes of the people, who saw what Jesus did and through whom the reputation they held so dear had been destroyed by the acts and words that the people saw and heard.
 
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Togowack
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179 - 11-21-2008, 01:26
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Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
I measure what literary scholars think of the authenticity of a specific text, then meander about the sources myself, and combine the two to draw my own conclusions. These conclusions indicate what I said.

I discount the entire Bible as anything but myth and hearsay.

He ''forced them into a position'' where they demanded his death? There's a clever guy. But, only if the story is true, which it appears it isn't.

He didn't destroy ****, because the Jews exist today as one of the most resistant cultures on Earth. And Jesus WAS a Jew.
It is impossible to know everything about how the text came about, there is a point where you have to believe in it, or at least offer a shadow of a doubt.
 
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High Fidelity
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180 - 11-21-2008, 01:26
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Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
I am a polytheist who believes in more Gods than you.
You wear this like a badge. As though, because you believe in more Gods than I do you are some authority on all that which is theistic. You're arrogant.

For the record, I believe in no Gods. Way to see what you want to see. Wait... seeing what you want to see... this is important somehow. Hrrmmm... you're so smart, I'll let you figure that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
And even I know where to call bull****. Nobody is lost, they simply recognize the idiocy and falsehood of a black/white system that you cream your jeans following, believing yourself superior over the sinners you perceive are persecuting you as one of God's chosen..
Translations: I perceive this to be bull****, therefore everyone must. This paragraph here is an incredible example of how self-centered and arrogant you are. To assume that you are some sort of measure of everyone else. Tsk tsk. One could even read into it and say that both characteristics are a result of the fear and insecurity you are filled with.

"Nobody" is "I". By assumption, you aren't fooled by the black/white of Christianity. If this were true, what would be the purpose of deflecting your "ideals" onto everyone else? This is a case of "I'M SAYING SOMETHING UNORTHODOX! You're with me... right guys?..... Right?"
 
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