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Reload this Page [Religion] "I want my kids to decide for themselves"
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-K-Crypt
VeteranX
Old
261 - 11-21-2008, 12:15
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Without reading the thread. You can teach kids morals without teaching a religion. I didn't need some invisible parents figure telling me how to be a good person because I had my parents actually using discipline unlike parents today. The religion part is just an easier way to say to their kids if you **** up I don't have to be the one to punish you, God will, and he will send you to hell if you are a bad person. **** that.
 
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HaPpY
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Old
262 - 11-21-2008, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that you didn't, and to know what I'm getting at.
im smart enough to realize an ad hominem as desperation in the argument. there is no point in going any further.
 
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Lothar of the Hillpeople
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263 - 11-21-2008, 12:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
Probably the most powerful verses to contend your statement.

Romans 3:21

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans is such an encouraging chapter.
There are contradictions in the bible? You don't say. I know I'm shocked. How about you guys?
 
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Lothar of the Hillpeople
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Old
264 - 11-21-2008, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
lothar eh? now i know blizzard is incapable of coming up with anything on their own.
What's this about Blizzard now?
 
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High Fidelity
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265 - 11-21-2008, 12:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
im smart enough to realize an ad hominem as desperation in the argument. there is no point in going any further.
Let me spell it out for you:

If you walk up to a fat person and say, "You're a fatass" and expect them to take it, but instead they get upset, the problem isn't with them, it's with you. The natural human condition demands that life simply can not be black and white, as you would have it. If someone is fat and it's a problem, calling them fat is counter-productive. It's "Why are you fat?" not "You are fat!" Doubt and self-esteem issues are psychological flaws and weaknesses that can not be addressed in a cut-and-dry manner.

This is why I would guess that you are lonely and, by extension, depressed. It's hard for anyone to find good companionship when they deny those things that make people human.

Maybe someday your way of handling things will be the correct way, but for now it isn't. The world isn't ready for in-your-face honesty. Coincidentally, all of this doubt and shame was created by religion. There needs to be a gradual easing in, which will take decades if not centuries.
 
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Last edited by High Fidelity; 11-21-2008 at 12:33..
-=TTC=-Serpreme
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266 - 11-21-2008, 13:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
Let me spell it out for you:

If you walk up to a fat person and say, "You're a fatass" and expect them to take it, but instead they get upset, the problem isn't with them, it's with you. The natural human condition demands that life simply can not be black and white, as you would have it. If someone is fat and it's a problem, calling them fat is counter-productive. It's "Why are you fat?" not "You are fat!" Doubt and self-esteem issues are psychological flaws and weaknesses that can not be addressed in a cut-and-dry manner.

This is why I would guess that you are lonely and, by extension, depressed. It's hard for anyone to find good companionship when they deny those things that make people human.

Maybe someday your way of handling things will be the correct way, but for now it isn't. The world isn't ready for in-your-face honesty. Coincidentally, all of this doubt and shame was created by religion. There needs to be a gradual easing in, which will take decades if not centuries.
Saying it negatively is bad. Telling them they are obese and need to seek help isnt.
Truth should never hurt.
 
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HaPpY
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267 - 11-21-2008, 14:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
Let me spell it out for you:

If you walk up to a fat person and say, "You're a fatass" and expect them to take it, but instead they get upset, the problem isn't with them, it's with you. The natural human condition demands that life simply can not be black and white, as you would have it. If someone is fat and it's a problem, calling them fat is counter-productive. It's "Why are you fat?" not "You are fat!" Doubt and self-esteem issues are psychological flaws and weaknesses that can not be addressed in a cut-and-dry manner.

This is why I would guess that you are lonely and, by extension, depressed. It's hard for anyone to find good companionship when they deny those things that make people human.

Maybe someday your way of handling things will be the correct way, but for now it isn't. The world isn't ready for in-your-face honesty. Coincidentally, all of this doubt and shame was created by religion. There needs to be a gradual easing in, which will take decades if not centuries.
i explained, reasoned, showed evidence, etc first. it didnt sink in at all... therefore i declared togo delusional.

reread the thread if you care so much as to nickpick my every word.

if you insist on insulting me based on loose assumptions you're no different than togo. if you must know im happily married, great career, etc etc.
 
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HaPpY
VeteranXV
Old
268 - 11-21-2008, 14:13
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i cant believe i helped push a fngr thread this far.
 
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Mabelrode
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269 - 11-21-2008, 14:33
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Originally Posted by LogRoller View Post
i could not let that statement about nazareth pass, since it's simply not true

Nazareth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is questioned as to whether or not it existed, but it depends on your reading of historical texts and evidence. 100 years ago, we had towns in west virginia that were not on any map. did they exist? 2000 years from now, no one will really know.
Sorry Loggy.

First, I said 'during Jesus' lifetime'. There is zero archeological evidence of any town or inhabitants of the area of Nazareth through the periods known as the Babylonian/Persian period [c 586BC] until the Roman I period [c37-70 AD]. None. There was a city nearby, which used that area as an ossuary - a cemetery. Do you understand what that means?

Jews would NEVER build a town over a burial ground, if they knew it was there. The nearby city was destroyed during one of the Hebrew revolts, and the area lay dormant until after jesus' supposed lifetime was well over.

Two of the major 'archeologists' who claimed to have found evidence of it being a town as described in the Bible [which incidentally gets the town's geography dead wrong], were both PRIESTS.
 
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triple
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270 - 11-21-2008, 14:33
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Quote:
As such, my children will be taught to tell the truth.
Why don't you lead by example and tell them religion (all religion) is a load of ****.

Religion is useful for two things. Keeping the stupid in line, for fear of eternal damnation, or giving hope to the old and sick.

So religion has its place. I just wouldn't start my kids off in life by imparting beliefs that I know to be untrue.
 
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SonGohan
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271 - 11-21-2008, 14:35
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Wow... I actually agree with Fngr with something.

Instill the fear of god into them and let them grow out of it. They SHOULD mold into an outstanding citizen.
 
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ZOD
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272 - 11-21-2008, 14:43
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I like cheese doodles.
 
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Last edited by ZOD; 11-23-2008 at 16:07..
Mabelrode
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273 - 11-21-2008, 14:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellsfury View Post
How do you know that you are not a part of my religion? How do you even know what my religion even is or what my views in general are regarding religions? Because I used a word.... christian, in my post?
I can safely bet that you are not a theodish Asatruar. Since you promote some form of Abrahamism of the Christian bent, my statement is true.


Quote:
The word or label is rather broad in scope and encompasses a very large set of views, many of which are opposed to each other. Many implications result from simply using the word, as I sense you are implying even now. Many people claim a right to the title, paradoxically they can't all refer to the same stance or view point. Many are therefore, not Christians... but which ones? How have you deduced of which of the many I am, or am not?
Are you trying to throw some kind of No True Scotsman fallacy in here for some reason - some who claim they are Christians really aren't? What's the point?


Quote:
You need this answer, with certainty. With an answer, you can then feel confident in passing judgment on me solely on the basis of what I perceive my belief to be.
In the context of the statement at hand, that being, do you or do you not include yourself among the saved in the saved/damned dichotomy you yourself presented as fact.... your personal answer will, in fact, mark true or false my conclusion that only those who think they are saved offer this dichotomy as being valid. It is a simple conclusion to reach, borne out one way or the other by what you actually believe.


Quote:
If I tell you that I consider myself among the saved, your court of opinion will hold me as being set against you for being among the damned. I will be guilty of some moral failing in your eye. I would be tried on the grounds of having passed Judgment against you and your differing view, thus placing you beneath me.
True enough, and it's no my fault that your belief system set things up this way, so quit trying to make it appear as if I am somehow at fault for this dichotomy that YOU follow.


Quote:
I can not pass judgment on you or anyone else. I can not see the future or what is in store there. What becomes of you, is well beyond my perception, but I should think it pessimistic and depressing to maintain an outlook that you are currently doomed to a hell bound fate.
I'm sure it must be, but I can only assume since I am not hellbound. As I said so clearly.


Quote:
So, asserting that I am secure in a belief of being among the saved doesn't preclude that I hold this place exclusively.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
On the other hand, what were to happen if I should state that I consider myself equally among the damned?
Then you would be unique among all the people running on this dichotomy that I have encountered.


Quote:
After all, regardless of where I am now, this view holds that we were all among the damned at some point and in some contexts continue to remain among the damned. Who am I to think that I should have extracted myself by now from my own character using my own means? Here again, if I should make this assertion I will still be guilty in your eye of having passed judgment against you and your philosophy.
And this after saying you are unqualified yourself to judge anyone, you know what my conclusion will be? lol.

Quote:
I will be viewed as having scorn for your way in life and your beliefs if I should hold that the world as it is, is not as it should be. Hence damned.

This is what I feel makes your charge against me impossible to succinctly hang on either of the two conditions you've outlined.

You have made several conclusions about what I believe based on a single word.... "christian". How is it not "egotistical bull****" to demand of me an accounting for something you've already concluded in your own mind based on this single word?
It's not egotistical bull**** because the premise was simple: does one proclaim as valid a philosophical system where the proclaimers are on the losing side for eternity? My answer is a concrete: no. See my conclusion below for more.
Quote:
Who here should claim to know the mind of God such that they can confidently condemn another as damned? If anyone here should go through life consistently referring to themselves as among the damned without ever having heard from God, the only one who could make this claim against you... who then condemns whom, Me? God? or just you?
Again, I am outside your system so **** what your God might presume to think about me, he is not my judge.

In conclusion, you spent several paragraphs completely dodging the issue of actually answering the question, thus showing your cowardice to allow that someone has you pegged. I did not consider anything you said above as any admission one way or the other, so, you backed out because you know I am spot on and did not want to be owned so publicly.
 
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Last edited by Mabelrode; 11-21-2008 at 15:12..
Archimedes
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274 - 11-21-2008, 15:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
Wow... I actually agree with Fngr with something.

Instill the fear of god into them and let them grow out of it. They SHOULD mold into an outstanding citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=TTC=-Serpreme View Post
Truth should never hurt.
 
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DocHolliday
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Old
275 - 11-21-2008, 15:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FngrBANG View Post
They will learn not to prey on the weaknesses of the misfortunate.

So true, this is why throughout history Christians have sent missionaries to the far reaches of the planet to convert people to their cause who were less fortunate and less civilized.
 
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High Fidelity
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276 - 11-21-2008, 16:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=TTC=-Serpreme View Post
Saying it negatively is bad. Telling them they are obese and need to seek help isnt.
Truth should never hurt.
But it does.

Zoom out a little bit, and view more of the landscape. If being obese is regarded as a bad thing, and those people that are obese are judged and persecuted, than all words on the subject are negative. What I mean to say is, if most people regard fat people as disgusting, than it in itself is a negative, so all conversation on the matter is negative.

But that's beside the point. The fact of the matter is that people are filled with doubt, shame, and insecurity. Perhaps you should be able to tell someone, "You're fat, take care of it." But you can't. And it's naive to believe otherwise.

And when was the last time you told someone something in a direct, unfriendly tone and they just did it because? Never.
 
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Hellsfury
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277 - 11-21-2008, 16:21
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In conclusion, you spent several paragraphs completely dodging the issue of actually answering the question, thus showing your cowardice to allow that someone has you pegged. I did not consider anything you said above as any admission one way or the other, so, you backed out because you know I am spot on and did not want to be owned so publicly.

Cowardice? You are so desperate to label me as something. You seethe animosity through your fingers as you type out your demand for me to simply play the part you need me to play.

You want someone to merely validate what you had already concluded so many pages ago. The longer I go without kowtowing to your views, the more it boils up in you.

I don't have to answer for any question or charge you have against me. You have already answered the question for yourself in your own mind. Whether I agree or not with the conclusion you've made is trivial at this point.

You hold your view beyond reproach and it is clear in how boldly you declare it before any other. So it is fascinating how you charge a dissimilar perspective with being egotistical bull**** and at the same time entrap yourself with your very own device.

It is not me who holds my position as superior to all others, it is you who place me there so that you have your justification to go on shouting about how it isn't so.


I should feel shamed at reserving optimism for my fate at Gods hand? I don't think you even considered what was being said in my first post before you revised it in your own mind to conform to the stereotype of you want as your adversary.
 
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Mabelrode
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278 - 11-21-2008, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellsfury View Post
Cowardice? You are so desperate to label me as something. You seethe animosity through your fingers as you type out your demand for me to simply play the part you need me to play.

You want someone to merely validate what you had already concluded so many pages ago. The longer I go without kowtowing to your views, the more it boils up in you.
You certainly have the choice to validate what I said. However, you could also negate it by typing out that you consider yourself damned in the Holy dichotomy you declared. Yet, as I pointed out, you refuse. Observers can surmise that you are, indeed, exactly as I described, since a simple admission in print would lay the matter to rest. Your continuing refusal only characterizes you as someone caught who cannot bring themselves to admit that someone was right about them.
Quote:
I don't have to answer for any question or charge you have against me. You have already answered the question for yourself in your own mind. Whether I agree or not with the conclusion you've made is trivial at this point.
You can do whatever you like; let everyone decide based on your actions. So far, they go along exactly as I described.

Quote:
You hold your view beyond reproach and it is clear in how boldly you declare it before any other. So it is fascinating how you charge a dissimilar perspective with being egotistical bull**** and at the same time entrap yourself with your very own device.
The statement that those who use the saved/damned dichotomy place themselves always in the former category is not some part of my religious dogma, it's an observation I make based on multiple statements that go exactly as I describe. So, here you go, adding a simple conversation piece into a faith system you know zero about, then trashing both as if they are a whole.

Quote:
It is not me who holds my position as superior to all others, it is you who place me there so that you have your justification to go on shouting about how it isn't so.
It is your own statement that places you there. I am not responsible for what you do, but I am allowed to draw conclusions about you from those actions, or lack of actions. If the conclusion is incorrect I have invited ytou several times to lay it to rest by a simple admission, which you continue to avoid doing with the thin excuse that i'm not the boss of you.


Quote:
I should feel shamed at reserving optimism for my fate at Gods hand? I don't think you even considered what was being said in my first post before you revised it in your own mind to conform to the stereotype of you want as your adversary.
This is what you said, exactly:

Quote:
Some people are Christians, but they do not know it.
Some people are not Christians, but they think so.
Some people are justified in their disbelief
Some people have no excuse.

I shall be pleasantly surprised by all those who end up at the LORDs table that I did not think would be there.
I shall be disheartened and mourn those who are turned away in shock for their genuine confusion at not being recognized
I shall be gracious and empathize with those who say they did not understand and could not comprehend of their own free will.
I shall give no regard for the above towards those who made their choice and now suffer a fate borne of themselves.

I should think that God will pour out his grace and acceptance of the first of each group while offering the second, very little in turn.
The bold part in particular shows your smugness being on the winning side. I really haven't needed to do anything to show you've made yourself an adversary, by showing contempt for those not lucky enough to 'sup at the Lords table' with you.

YOU have already decided where you'll be in this and it's not one of the shocked, the uncomprehending, or the sufferers.

Did I say this?

No, you did.

QED


Or state that you are damned.

It's so easy, and because you dare not tempt your God by saying you are damned, you cannot do it.
 
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Last edited by Mabelrode; 11-21-2008 at 16:52..
HaPpY
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279 - 11-21-2008, 16:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
But it does.

Zoom out a little bit, and view more of the landscape. If being obese is regarded as a bad thing, and those people that are obese are judged and persecuted, than all words on the subject are negative. What I mean to say is, if most people regard fat people as disgusting, than it in itself is a negative, so all conversation on the matter is negative.

But that's beside the point. The fact of the matter is that people are filled with doubt, shame, and insecurity. Perhaps you should be able to tell someone, "You're fat, take care of it." But you can't. And it's naive to believe otherwise.

And when was the last time you told someone something in a direct, unfriendly tone and they just did it because? Never.
fat people are undisciplined. the best way is strict peer pressure. either they'll cry, eat more, and die sooner... or they'll do something about it and drop the weight. for society, its win-win either way.

the driving force of life is survival of the fittest... not the dumbest, laziest, fattest, etc.
 
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prowler
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280 - 11-21-2008, 16:53
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there you have it

fngrbang has solved the nature vs nurture problem
 
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