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Reload this Page [Religion] "I want my kids to decide for themselves"
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arcadus
VeteranXV
Old
241 - 11-21-2008, 03:22
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hey togowack can you show us some empirical data showing that god exists or that jesus was the son of god and performed miracles and whatever else your bible says?

and dont pull that "you must believe to see it." you're going to have to do a bit better with that. at least provide some logic that isnt circular or horribly flawed.
 
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Togowack
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Old
242 - 11-21-2008, 03:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOD View Post
Ok well I think it is pretty clear at this point that you dismiss truth as the relationship, confluence or accuracy with which the ideas and concepts in our minds relate to matter and energy in reality and instead embrace falsehoods which absolutely no ties to reality. So really, going any further would be an exercise in futility.
If anything I said disagrees with what the Bible says, quote me on it. I will refute it. I have every right to, and you have every right to stereotype me as a bible thumper, but know this. I live what I believe and stand by it pretty closely. I accuse no one unless they first accused the bible, which I stand for.

You should try doing the same.
 
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Vanster
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Old
243 - 11-21-2008, 03:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
well until you start bringing something to the table here, I'm sick of arguing facts.
 
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ZOD
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Old
244 - 11-21-2008, 03:39
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I like cheese doodles.
 
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Last edited by ZOD; 11-23-2008 at 16:08..
HaPpY
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Old
245 - 11-21-2008, 03:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
If anything I said disagrees with what the Bible says, quote me on it. I will refute it. I have every right to, and you have every right to stereotype me as a bible thumper, but know this. I live what I believe and stand by it pretty closely. I accuse no one unless they first accused the bible, which I stand for.

You should try doing the same.
so you agree that grass came before the stars then?

12. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13. And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

or will you tell me that 2 comes after 3?
 
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Last edited by HaPpY; 11-21-2008 at 06:56..
arcadus
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Old
246 - 11-21-2008, 03:45
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its completely true that the earth was made in a week by a man comparable to santa claus
 
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SaintDude
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Old
247 - 11-21-2008, 03:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Togowack View Post
If anything I said disagrees with what the Bible says, quote me on it. I will refute it. I have every right to, and you have every right to stereotype me as a bible thumper, but know this. I live what I believe and stand by it pretty closely. I accuse no one unless they first accused the bible, which I stand for.

You should try doing the same.
You stand for the bible. A dusty, contrived, inconsistent work of man. Created as nothing more than a story book that was tweaked and modified over the centuries so that other men could use it as a means of control. That control has you wound up SO tightly that you cannot fathom a world without it.

I stand on the side of mankind. At least you can point to our existence and prove we're here. The day that god is proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt is the day I believe. Not through "life is a miracle" or "faith" or a coincidence that you'd be more than willing to label as divine intervention. I'm talking hard core tangible proof. Not the 2000 years of constant bull****, circumstantial evidence that the thumpers keep spouting.
 
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Hellsfury
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Old
248 - 11-21-2008, 05:17
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Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
I am not a member of your religion so I am not a victim of Original Sin; thus, I do not sin [because the rules of my Gods are vastly different than yours and sin does not exist in theirs], I don't require a savior, and I am not going to either your Heaven, nor your Hell. I am not a child of your God.
How do you know that you are not a part of my religion? How do you even know what my religion even is or what my views in general are regarding religions? Because I used a word.... christian, in my post?

The word or label is rather broad in scope and encompasses a very large set of views, many of which are opposed to each other. Many implications result from simply using the word, as I sense you are implying even now. Many people claim a right to the title, paradoxically they can't all refer to the same stance or view point. Many are therefore, not Christians... but which ones? How have you deduced of which of the many I am, or am not?

Quote:
My statement was that this worldview is never held by someone who assumes they are doomed to the less fortunate category. So, prove my point or negate it: state in writing whether in truth you are one of the saved, or one of the damned.
You need this answer, with certainty. With an answer, you can then feel confident in passing judgment on me solely on the basis of what I perceive my belief to be. If I tell you that I consider myself among the saved, your court of opinion will hold me as being set against you for being among the damned. I will be guilty of some moral failing in your eye. I would be tried on the grounds of having passed Judgment against you and your differing view, thus placing you beneath me. I can not pass judgment on you or anyone else. I can not see the future or what is in store there. What becomes of you, is well beyond my perception, but I should think it pessimistic and depressing to maintain an outlook that you are currently doomed to a hell bound fate. So, asserting that I am secure in a belief of being among the saved doesn't preclude that I hold this place exclusively.

On the other hand, what were to happen if I should state that I consider myself equally among the damned? After all, regardless of where I am now, this view holds that we were all among the damned at some point and in some contexts continue to remain among the damned. Who am I to think that I should have extracted myself by now from my own character using my own means? Here again, if I should make this assertion I will still be guilty in your eye of having passed judgment against you and your philosophy. I will be viewed as having scorn for your way in life and your beliefs if I should hold that the world as it is, is not as it should be. Hence damned.

This is what I feel makes your charge against me impossible to succinctly hang on either of the two conditions you've outlined.

You have made several conclusions about what I believe based on a single word.... "christian". How is it not "egotistical bull****" to demand of me an accounting for something you've already concluded in your own mind based on this single word?

Who here should claim to know the mind of God such that they can confidently condemn another as damned? If anyone here should go through life consistently referring to themselves as among the damned without ever having heard from God, the only one who could make this claim against you... who then condemns whom, Me? God? or just you?
 
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LogRoller
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Old
249 - 11-21-2008, 08:23
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Originally Posted by Mabelrode View Post
Since it isn't [for example, Nazareth did not exist as an occupied village during Jesus' life time - aside from a number of other inconvenient details], the rest of your point is moot.
i could not let that statement about nazareth pass, since it's simply not true

Nazareth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is questioned as to whether or not it existed, but it depends on your reading of historical texts and evidence. 100 years ago, we had towns in west virginia that were not on any map. did they exist? 2000 years from now, no one will really know.
 
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Vanster
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Old
250 - 11-21-2008, 08:30
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JuggerNaught
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Old
251 - 11-21-2008, 08:59
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Originally Posted by Vanster View Post
(van, we're probably part of only a handful on here that has ever heard of that awesome band)
 
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Vanster
VeteranXV
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Old
252 - 11-21-2008, 09:17
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Now you're messin with. . .A SON OF A *****
 
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Automatic Jack
VeteranX
Old
253 - 11-21-2008, 10:41
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Have you ever really looked at your hand, man? I mean, really looked at it?
 
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High Fidelity
Veteran4
Old
254 - 11-21-2008, 11:55
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Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
my method is pointing out evidence, facts, and basic reason. which has little impact on the unreasonable whose own religion and bible forbids them from listening to or even pondering such an alternative to their world view... yes im referring to that clause in any successful religion that suggests punishment for alternative thought.
I see evidence and facts, not reasoning. Telling someone they are far gone, lost, delusional, etc is ineffective.
 
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HaPpY
VeteranXV
Old
255 - 11-21-2008, 12:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
I see evidence and facts, not reasoning. Telling someone they are far gone, lost, delusional, etc is ineffective.
sure it is. its constructive criticism of their inability to listen to said evidence, facts, reason. there are only so many ways to open the door. its a last resort... and if it doesnt work, nothing else will.

if you call a fat person fat and they cant even admit it theres little more you can do to help them.

see: five stages of grief
1. denial and isolation.
2. anger.
3. bargaining.
4. depression.
5. acceptance.
 
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High Fidelity
Veteran4
Old
256 - 11-21-2008, 12:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcadus View Post
hey togowack can you show us some empirical data showing that god exists or that jesus was the son of god and performed miracles and whatever else your bible says?

and dont pull that "you must believe to see it." you're going to have to do a bit better with that. at least provide some logic that isnt circular or horribly flawed.
This is the problem with atheists. Empirical data means nothing to people with Faith. In order to enlighten those with Faith you have to appeal to them in the same way that their religion does.

Why do you need God in your life?
Because he gives me strength to make it through life.

But there are millions of people who live wonderful and amazing lives who have no faith whatsoever. What makes you different from these people?
Well, ummm...

It can be assumed that your need for God compensates for your shortcomings and weaknesses, as, without him, you couldn't make it through life where so many others could. Is this true?
Well, they won't go to Heaven.

Based on that, we can assume your faith is based on a fear of consequence. That consequence is denial of Heaven, and a chance to spend eternity in depression and dark despair and sadness. So, you believe in God for your own good, not out of love for Jesus and his word. Can we assume this?
Well, no. He fills me with happiness.

Is your smile any larger than the ones of those who don't believe? Why do you need God for happiness when so many other people don't?
I don't know, I just do. I love him.

Because you believe in God, do the negative things in the world not exist? They may disappear for you, but do they still exist?
Yes.

So your believe in God keeps you from having deal with these things. When you are saddened or depressed or when the world is too hard, you pray and it's all better?
Yes.

So we can assume that your belief in God is based on fear of the world and fear of the afterlife?
No.

But that's what you've told me. I have not twisted your words or corrupted your thoughts. You gave me the answers.

Questions. Most importantly the question "Why?"
 
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High Fidelity
Veteran4
Old
257 - 11-21-2008, 12:09
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Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
sure it is. its constructive criticism of their inability to listen to said evidence, facts, reason. there are only so many ways to open the door. its a last resort... and if it doesnt work, nothing else will.

if you call a fat person fat and they cant even admit it theres little more you can do to help them.

see: five stages of grief
1. denial and isolation.
2. anger.
3. bargaining.
4. depression.
5. acceptance.
I imagine you spend a lot of your life alone and/or depressed.
 
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HaPpY
VeteranXV
Old
258 - 11-21-2008, 12:11
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those are loaded questions and generally wont be answered as expected. especially the yes/no answers will involve discussion of free will, etc instead.
 
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HaPpY
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Old
259 - 11-21-2008, 12:12
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Originally Posted by High Fidelity View Post
I imagine you spend a lot of your life alone and/or depressed.
did i strike a nerve or something to warrant this false ad hominem? im sorry.
 
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Last edited by HaPpY; 11-21-2008 at 12:14..
High Fidelity
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260 - 11-21-2008, 12:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
did i strike a nerve or something? im sorry.
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that you didn't, and to know what I'm getting at.
 
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Reload this Page [Religion] "I want my kids to decide for themselves"

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