people in this country burn down half a city when their favorite sports team loses, hell it frequently happens when their favorite team wins. If Obama loses, a massive conflagration is inevitable.

Have we learned nothing since those horrible '04 and '00 riots????

flexxx and wowbagger, do you deny that McCain ran a horrible campaign?

Originally Posted by SniperWhôre

people in this country burn down half a city when their favorite sports team loses, hell it frequently happens when their favorite team wins. If Obama loses, a massive conflagration is inevitable.

I feel like if Obama loses a massive investigation into elections in this country will be inevitable

Originally Posted by Kurayami

I agree that there will never be an overthrow.

Not in our lifetimes.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

However, I hold absolutely no hope for change from within. "Change" would require the government to reform itself. It would require the federal bureaucracy (and therefore the Executive branch) to willingly relinquish an awful lot of power. It would also require Congress to reform itself. Those are two massive changes that will require the government to work against its own interests, and I really can't think of a single precedent for this in history--people do not willingly give up power. That is because people are not altruistic: they are douchebags.

While this is mostly true, I think you're thinking about it too much as one faceless entity run by generic humans, none of whom are altruistic. I truly believe that there are a few people who are acting in the best interest of the public more often than not (perhaps at the expense of their inherent human selfishness).

My prime example for this is Russ Feingold, Senator D-Wisconsin. I'm hard pressed to find a single vote he's made that I disagree with. He holds to very strict principles from which I have not seen him deviate legislatively. Here's a good example:

Feingold, who was elected to Congress on a promise not to accept pay raises while in office, has so far returned over $50,000 in such raises to the U.S. Treasury.[41] In addition, he is notoriously frugal in his office's spending, and sends back the money that he does not use. In one six-month period in 1999, for example, his office received $1.787 million in appropriations and returned $145,000, a higher percentage than any other senator.[42]

Perhaps I'm more optimistic about governance because he is one of our Senators here and I really put a lot of trust in him. Our other Senator, Herb Kohl D-Wisconsin, is an absolute example of the type of politician you are referring to. He needs to be voted out but it will never happen unless he's indicted like Ted Stevens.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

I'm not even sure how to sort out the judiciary.
It was never intended to be political, but it has become extremely politicized. It's about the only issue that I care about in the upcoming election, and that is not what the framers intended. The Judicial branch was essentially supposed to be a meritocracy, it was not supposed to be about abortion and believing in Jesus.

Fully agree. Unfortunately, I think that's a result of the polarized society that we've become thanks in no small part due to the selfishness of humans. As a liberal (yes, I have the audacity to label myself), I tend to blame it more on Republicans for pushing their goddamn agenda but I know Democrats are not free from blame on this either.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

The US government will eventually collapse. All republics eventually collapse from within if left to their own devices. That will be the chance for true reform.

Yes. But again, we'll probably be dead. So what good is it to sit around and expect this eventually? Not doing anything is basically like saying it's ok for Government to go ahead and run our lives for us. We've got to take positions, and yes I do think the public can influence government. Maybe not on everything, but on plenty of relevant issues.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

I respect your belief that it can be changed from within--I just don't share it.

I'm not sure where you get the authority to ridicule mine, though.

The reason you and I have a problem is entirely based in 2004 politics. You were vehemently anti-Kerry and absolutely pro-Bush (implicitly or not). Bush is an absolute disaster for this country and I give you credit for coming to that conclusion, albeit belatedly. I was not pro-Kerry so much as I was anti-Bush and anything I said otherwise was a means to an end.

It's only slightly amusing to realize how ****ing awful it was that this country elected Bush twice until you realize that we'll all be reaping the rewards of the ****fest he created for years to come. He probably speeded the demise of the Republic but that doesn't mean it's going to collapse in our lifetimes.

This is way too ****ing long a post but oh well.

Originally Posted by Fool

flexxx and wowbagger, do you deny that McCain ran a horrible campaign?

He ran a horrible campaign but that does not mean it's the reason Barack Obama is set to trounce his ass.

You understand why can't directly correlate these things, right? There are a lot of other factors at play.

Originally Posted by Fool

flexxx and wowbagger, do you deny that McCain ran a horrible campaign?

Of course not. His campaign was ****ing incompetent. I almost feel sorry for him.
The fact of the matter is there's almost always the possibility of one candidate or the other ****ing up and having it cost him the election. I realized this. Everyone who said Obama had no chance way back in the summer did not.

Yes but had McCain not driven away moderate voters with his **** campaign, this election would likely be 50/50 right now and could easily swing to either side. Speculation sure, but so is saying Obama winning is a forgone conclusion.

Originally Posted by Fool

Yes but had McCain not driven away moderate voters with his **** campaign, this election would likely be 50/50 right now and could easily swing to either side. Speculation sure, but so is saying Obama winning is a forgone conclusion.

Remember that Bush has the lowest approval rating of any President since they've started keeping track. This plays into the minds of moderates quite a bit. Sure, each candidate had to meet a threshold but McCain had to run against Bush's record (which he supports over 90%) while Obama has the benefit of default +10% generic congressional ballot in favor of Democrats.

Bush ****ed up hard and he ****ed up huge on a whole range of ****. This year, as in 2006, voters are keeping that in mind. Moderates weren't evenly distributed coming into this and it wasn't like McCain "gave them away". They were never his to give. He certainly did everything he could to solidify their support with Obama though.

Any moderate that considers McCain to be Bush is not a moderate. They are different people with different ways of doing things. McCain's biggest mistake was not doing everything in his power 6 months ago to separate himself from the President (whose support he needed to wrap up the religious right at the time).

Fact is, McCain's campaign is responsible for the lead that Obama has. Obama's camp has done an amazing job tactically beating Hillary and then allowing McCain to continue to shoot himself in the foot. Now there's no way to say that McCain would've won this election right now had his campaign not sucked so bad, but you have to admit it would've been a proverbial coin flip had they not.

Kurayami is right though, a year ago the only people who thought Obama had a chance in hell were the crazy lefties.

Originally Posted by flexxx

My prime example for this is Russ Feingold, Senator D-Wisconsin. I'm hard pressed to find a single vote he's made that I disagree with. He holds to very strict principles from which I have not seen him deviate legislatively. Here's a good example:

People like that do exist, but they are in the vast minority.

They also tend to be corrupted eventually.

Fully agree. Unfortunately, I think that's a result of the polarized society that we've become thanks in no small part due to the selfishness of humans. As a liberal (yes, I have the audacity to label myself), I tend to blame it more on Republicans for pushing their goddamn agenda but I know Democrats are not free from blame on this either.

There's no question that it stems largely from the Republican party's ridiculous courtship of the religious right over the last several decades. It was bad before that, but it's unconscionable at this point.

Yes. But again, we'll probably be dead. So what good is it to sit around and expect this eventually? Not doing anything is basically like saying it's ok for Government to go ahead and run our lives for us. We've got to take positions, and yes I do think the public can influence government. Maybe not on everything, but on plenty of relevant issues.

I don't.
As I said, if there were a channel for me to actually express my disapproval of the government, I would. Unfortunately, I am forced to cast my vote for one of two parties, both of which are guilty of perpetuating the problem and will never be party to a solution.

The bottom line is that I do not support the current government in any way, shape, or form. It is flawed and has deviated too far from its course.

The reason you and I have a problem is entirely based in 2004 politics. You were vehemently anti-Kerry and absolutely pro-Bush (implicitly or not). Bush is an absolute disaster for this country and I give you credit for coming to that conclusion, albeit belatedly. I was not pro-Kerry so much as I was anti-Bush and anything I said otherwise was a means to an end.

I was never pro-Bush.
I was anti-Kerry and anti-Bush. You were just sensitive to one side of this because I tended to attack a lot of the fringe leftist ideas (especially in regards to Iraq--which I never supported, by the way. About as close as I've come to "support" for that fiasco is saying that Saddam was a douchebag and that things may improve without him in power, but it has since become clear that, even though he was a douchebag, he was required to contain the region.) However, at the same time, I attacked a lot of the rightards as well.

In fact, I probably made fun of Triple more than anybody else over the course of the 2004 election.

Although I will freely admit that I did make a lot of incendiary comments just for my own amusement, I can tell you that Bush never had my backing.

Although I will admit to being wrong about just how disastrous his presidency could be. I thought that it would be unpleasant, but I didn't realize that it would result in the entire planet hating us.

It's only slightly amusing to realize how ****ing awful it was that this country elected Bush twice until you realize that we'll all be reaping the rewards of the ****fest he created for years to come. He probably speeded the demise of the Republic but that doesn't mean it's going to collapse in our lifetimes.

I agree.
The US has another 1-200 years. Collapse won't come until after China and India industrialize and become the new economic/military powers. The EU will also most likely overtake the US eventually as well.

The US will die with a whimper rather than a bang.

And I'm sure that even reading that has retards like triple and Musashi frothing at the mouth.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

People like that do exist, but they are in the vast minority.

They also tend to be corrupted eventually.

Agree. People are easily corruptible but I'll hope for the best.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

There's no question that it stems largely from the Republican party's ridiculous courtship of the religious right over the last several decades. It was bad before that, but it's unconscionable at this point.

I don't.
As I said, if there were a channel for me to actually express my disapproval of the government, I would. Unfortunately, I am forced to cast my vote for one of two parties, both of which are guilty of perpetuating the problem and will never be party to a solution.

The bottom line is that I do not support the current government in any way, shape, or form. It is flawed and has deviated too far from its course.

I can respect this to a certain degree.

But I know that in the short term, I see a clear rational choice. Where it concerns human equality, the Democrats are far more inclusive. They are far from perfect and there are a lot of people/policies I could do without but seeing as we're presented with 2 choices, I think it's smart to choose a side so long as there is enough difference -- and I really think there is.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

I was never pro-Bush.
I was anti-Kerry and anti-Bush. You were just sensitive to one side of this because I tended to attack a lot of the fringe leftist ideas (especially in regards to Iraq--which I never supported, by the way. About as close as I've come to "support" for that fiasco is saying that Saddam was a douchebag and that things may improve without him in power, but it has since become clear that, even though he was a douchebag, he was required to contain the region.) However, at the same time, I attacked a lot of the rightards as well.

In fact, I probably made fun of Triple more than anybody else over the course of the 2004 election.

Although I will freely admit that I did make a lot of incendiary comments just for my own amusement, I can tell you that Bush never had my backing.

This may be, and I'm certain I was in something of a partisan haze at that point so the difference between anti-kerry, pro-bush or just straight up against the system may have blurred in my mind. I still see Bush as an absolute evil that had to be stopped at all costs. I'm not exactly sure what I thought was going to happen were he to get re-elected but I think the economic, social and political environment we're in today was certainly within the realm of possibility. Perhaps even worse conditions.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

Although I will admit to being wrong about just how disastrous his presidency could be. I thought that it would be unpleasant, but I didn't realize that it would result in the entire planet hating us.

I appreciate that you're able to say this. I fully expected it but I'm not going to claim too much credit. Who knows where we'd be with Kerry but I can't imagine it would be worse.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

I agree.
The US has another 1-200 years. Collapse won't come until after China and India industrialize and become the new economic/military powers. The EU will also most likely overtake the US eventually as well.

The US will die with a whimper rather than a bang.

And I'm sure that even reading that has retards like triple and Musashi frothing at the mouth.

I agree 100% with everything you said here. The rapid rise of former "third world" countries thanks to globalization means we're headed for a big ****ing resource fight. Our export/import deficit is HUGE. We don't produce anything anymore and we're just shipping our wealth overseas. There's no way we can continue to consume resources at the speed and quantity we are currently doing.

Ironically, American greed sets us up for inevitable demise as all these other countries start to have the means to compete for "our" resources.

We're on the slow inevitable decline but I think we still have an obligation to vote for someone who will attempt to improve the quality of our lives in the short run.

See: British empire. Nothing lasts forever.

Originally Posted by flexxx

But I know that in the short term, I see a clear rational choice. Where it concerns human equality, the Democrats are far more inclusive. They are far from perfect and there are a lot of people/policies I could do without but seeing as we're presented with 2 choices, I think it's smart to choose a side so long as there is enough difference -- and I really think there is.

In all honesty, if I lived in a swing state, I probably would vote for Obama.

Not because I support him.
Not because I believe that he will change anything.
Not because I believe there's any hope for getting things back on track.
But because the thought of what McCain (or worse--Palin) will do to the supreme court scares the **** out of me.

That is something that has real potential to adversely affect everyday life in this country for a generation.

However, I live in CT, and even if I didn't want Obama, he would get our electoral votes anyway. So I'm able to maintain my (admittedly highly ineffective) form of protest.

I agree 100% with everything you said here. The rapid rise of former "third world" countries thanks to globalization means we're headed for a big ****ing resource fight. Our export/import deficit is HUGE. We don't produce anything anymore and we're just shipping our wealth overseas. There's no way we can continue to consume resources at the speed and quantity we are currently doing.

Ironically, American greed sets us up for inevitable demise as all these other countries start to have the means to compete for "our" resources.

The economy will turn to **** and we will return the the irrelevancy of the 18th century, but it definitely will set the stage for a return to the actual principles that this country was founded upon.

The age of American economic imperialism is at an end. It was a good run, but like the British, it's time to learn to place nice-nice.

That's why I'm voting Obama. I live in a swing state (presumably), and I don't think the President has as much power as everyone thinks they have. It's congress that's completely responsible for the current crisis. No party is responsible, it's a collective 535 assholes who do nothing but take money from special interests, pass reactionary legislation and give presidents carte blanche because then they can always pass the buck on to the administration instead of claiming responsibility.

Originally Posted by Fool

That's why I'm voting Obama. I live in a swing state (presumably), and I don't think the President has as much power as everyone thinks they have. It's congress that's completely responsible for the current crisis. No party is responsible, it's a collective 535 assholes who do nothing but take money from special interests, pass reactionary legislation and give presidents carte blanche because then they can always pass the buck on to the administration instead of claiming responsibility.

Bingo.
Congress is the real problem.

Although the Executive Branch has seized far more power than it was ever intended to have (THX GREAT DEPRESSION.) The Presidency certainly doesn't help things. Especially with the power of appointment and a guy like Bu$Hitler.

Seized implies they had to forcibly take it. Congress has willingly given it to him.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

In all honesty, if I lived in a swing state, I probably would vote for Obama.

Not because I support him.
Not because I believe that he will change anything.
Not because I believe there's any hope for getting things back on track.
But because the thought of what McCain (or worse--Palin) will do to the supreme court scares the **** out of me.

That is something that has real potential to adversely affect everyday life in this country for a generation.

However, I live in CT, and even if I didn't want Obama, he would get our electoral votes anyway. So I'm able to maintain my (admittedly highly ineffective) form of protest.

I can respect all this.

Originally Posted by Kurayami

The economy will turn to **** and we will return the the irrelevancy of the 18th century, but it definitely will set the stage for a return to the actual principles that this country was founded upon.

The age of American economic imperialism is at an end. It was a good run, but like the British, it's time to learn to place nice-nice.

While neither party is particularly realistic when it comes to this eventuality, the xenophobic rabidly pro-American Republicans will probably be the last people to accept it.

I see Obama as an intellectual and someone who is willing to look at things realistically and consider multiple viewpoints. McCain has been rational in the past but it's clear he's gone off the deep end recently -- especially evident in the Palin pick (she is a ****ing nightmare).

So yeah, I hope for a realistic reasoned intellectual approach under Obama. McCain seems far too beholden to his party and their numerous insane ideals.