How to convert Unbelievers

ChiNa said:
The Messianic prophecies were never fulfilled in Jesus. It´s a Christian tendency to read the Old Testament in a mutilated context and in doing so they throw a great piece of literature in front of swine.

It was never Yeshua´s intention to be haralded as the Messiah. His intention was to teach people how to love God not as slaves bound to the law, but to Love God as his Son and rightful heir! Forget the law, forget faith, forget dogma, you are the Son of God and the rightful heir to His Kingdom! This is the Good News.
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I am a relatively new believer and I have not had the time to cross reference OT and NT myself personally. I will have to read some OT quotes and try and not dilute the context so I can see for myself.

But we are in agreeance that doctrine, law, and dogma are irrelevant in terms of the worship of God. I believe faith is still very important though and is the basis of the realization that we are the Son's of God.
 
Sipher77 said:
God requires vessels to display his Glory and Essence. In order for this to happen, man must be tested by fire, just as steel is formed into a sword. God himself would never ask his angels to do such a task as it is sinful. The only being that would take this dirty comission with pride is Satan, the fallen angel.

The reason God tested Job with hardship by killing and taking everything Job had, was because though Job righteous and pure, he really had no conception or relationship with God. He feared him and worshipped him because he was given gifts, but he did not love him like God wanted. After these dark tribulations, Job finally realized what God required of his followers, and from then on he had a solid relationship with the Lord.

We need hardship in our life to truly understand and love God.

So I will say to all believers who read this, though you are going through hardship and pain, KNOW that God is merely forging you into a vessel, be happy in some way at least, that by the end you will be stronger in God's eyes for all your pain.
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The conclusion any reader will draw is that Job is more mature, the stronger and has more sense of morality than god. Forget the god of Job, we overcame that god. It´s time to start seeing ourselves as the rightful heirs to the God that deserves to be called Father.
 
God gave you a Jeep. You woke up the next morning and the Jeep, without explanation, was just sitting there, parked in your drive with the keys in the ignition, the title in the glovebox with your signature (that you never signed).

^^ assuming the above is true, this would be the only way I would ever come close to believing that God had something to do with you getting a Jeep you'd prayed for. You prayed, essentially cast an intricate spell, taking over 6 months of chants and summoning rituals, and suddenly a Jeep was presented before you.

It took you SIX fucking months to find the Jeep!

Maybe if your faith had been stronger (and if you'd searched on Ebay at the same time) you could have magically materialized the Jeep of your prayers in only 2 months.
 
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Sipher77 said:
God requires vessels to display his Glory and Essence. In order for this to happen, man must be tested by fire, just as steel is formed into a sword. God himself would never ask his angels to do such a task as it is sinful. The only being that would take this dirty comission with pride is Satan, the fallen angel.

The reason God tested Job with hardship by killing and taking everything Job had, was because though Job righteous and pure, he really had no conception or relationship with God. He feared him and worshipped him because he was given gifts, but he did not love him like God wanted. After these dark tribulations, Job finally realized what God required of his followers, and from then on he had a solid relationship with the Lord.

We need hardship in our life to truly understand and love God.

So I will say to all believers who read this, though you are going through hardship and pain, KNOW that God is merely forging you into a vessel, be happy in some way at least, that by the end you will be stronger in God's eyes for all your pain.
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i cannot and will not accept that as an answer for 3 reasons.

1. it is a question only god can answer, and you are no prophet nor can you speak for him

2. everyone has hardships but i am talking wars and finite resources. god tests the character of the person, not the whole. war and loss of resources strain everyone at once, and no one person can fix it, and no group is willing to fix it. a person is smart, people are dumb, angry, excitable creatures who cannot be completely good.

3. if god wants us to worship him and love him, how can we do that when the only definitive proof is a book that has been rewritten hundreds of thousands of times over. a lot of people can't love something they don't believe, wouldn't it just be easier to know he exists if he just showed up and let us know? wouldn't a lot more people have faith and love if they knew he was really there?
 
I personally like to believe that my good morals are worth more than any religious person's because I do the right thing with no promise of heaven or hell; I do it because I am a compassionate human being, not looking for a reward.

God doesn't exist, you cannot prove he exists because that would undermine the faith religion is based on. I am not talking about christianity, I am talking about all religion.

It limits the mind and turns one into a tool.
 
Sipher77 said:
When I realized the importance of helping others with no intention of repayment, and loving others unconditionally, I fell in love with God's word and how it changed my life.

Though the temptation is still there occasionally to take advantage of women, or accumulate large amounts of money and cool toys, I no longer feel attached to it as the reason for my existence. I want just enough money to live and support myself. I do not want casual sex but a mutal relationship with solid foundations, a symbiotic relationship with a girl.
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Hey, I'm the exact same way except for some strange reason I didn't and don't need god. So I'm still very confused because you still sound like a god fetishist. Why is god needed?
 
Urshilikai said:
I personally like to believe that my good morals are worth more than any religious person's because I do the right thing with no promise of heaven or hell; I do it because I am a compassionate human being, not looking for a reward.

God doesn't exist, you cannot prove he exists because that would undermine the faith religion is based on. I am not talking about christianity, I am talking about all religion.

It limits the mind and turns one into a tool.
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:signed:
 
WildKnight said:
i cannot and will not accept that as an answer for 3 reasons.

1. it is a question only god can answer, and you are no prophet nor can you speak for him

2. everyone has hardships but i am talking wars and finite resources. god tests the character of the person, not the whole. war and loss of resources strain everyone at once, and no one person can fix it, and no group is willing to fix it. a person is smart, people are dumb, angry, excitable creatures who cannot be completely good.

3. if god wants us to worship him and love him, how can we do that when the only definitive proof is a book that has been rewritten hundreds of thousands of times over. a lot of people can't love something they don't believe, wouldn't it just be easier to know he exists if he just showed up and let us know? wouldn't a lot more people have faith and love if they knew he was really there?
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1. It is stated that "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go and therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." The best way to validate God testing man is to see what he did with those he chose. Jesus is a good example. Jesus was tested for 40 days and nights by Satan. If God even required his only begotten Son to be tested by trials and temptations, would we not also be required of this same fact?

2. Of war I can not speak of, but I will say that would not war test every party involved?

3. Try one experiement my friend. Follow all the actions of the Lord Jesus Christ. When one hits you, turn the other cheek, when one seeks to be your enemy, forgive him, be mericful, help the weak, and be a peacemaker. Do these things with Christ in mind, and see what happens to your life. If nothing happens, go about your business as usual. But if you feel a definite change in your life, then you know that God exists and you can pray for him to guide you further.
 
Sipher77 said:
It is written, do not test the Lord God.

My faith is also not that strong that I would be able to fly. My faith has to be absolute, and I am too caught up in the world to be able to do this.

Explain to me certain events that happen in the world that people regard as miracles. You hear stories of this all the time, simply google miracles and I am sure you will read many stories that science cannot explain.
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Wait, did not the other uber-xian say that the bible says to test god? These are two radically different intepretations, and if the bible allows for such variances, then either every possible interpretation is correct (i.e., anything can be true, and thus the bible is worthless); or the bible was in fact not written by an all-knowing being (an all knowing being could write a book that everyone interprets the exact same way). In this scenario, god is a liar, as in the bible he claims to be all-knowing.
 
Urshilikai said:
I personally like to believe that my good morals are worth more than any religious person's because I do the right thing with no promise of heaven or hell; I do it because I am a compassionate human being, not looking for a reward.

God doesn't exist, you cannot prove he exists because that would undermine the faith religion is based on. I am not talking about christianity, I am talking about all religion.

It limits the mind and turns one into a tool.
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A TRUE BELIEVER, does not do good works because they fear hell. All you need to avoid hell, is to believe Jesus and to be baptized. That is all. I do not fear hell any longer because I have done these things.

A TRUE BELIEVER will do good works not because of the fear of punishment, but because HE TRULY WANTS TO BE LIKE CHRIST. I dont help others because I fear God, I do it because I can sympthathize with their pain, for they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I feel love for everyone of you in this thread because of this very fact.
 
Uruk-Khai said:
Wait, did not the other uber-xian say that the bible says to test god? These are two radically different intepretations, and if the bible allows for such variances, then either every possible interpretation is correct (i.e., anything can be true, and thus the bible is worthless); or the bible was in fact not written by an all-knowing being (an all knowing being could write a book that everyone interprets the exact same way). In this scenario, god is a liar, as in the bible he claims to be all-knowing.
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What is the uber-xian? There are different contexts for the same basic sentence, for you have to read the other passages to see what God means.

Jesus himself says to Satan in reference to Satan telling him to jump off a high temple to see if the angels will save him. Jesus then states "It is written, You shall not test the Lord your God."

So i dont know what you meant by the uber-xian or what not.
 
Sipher77 said:
I am a relatively new believer and I have not had the time to cross reference OT and NT myself personally. I will have to read some OT quotes and try and not dilute the context so I can see for myself.

But we are in agreeance that doctrine, law, and dogma are irrelevant in terms of the worship of God. I believe faith is still very important though and is the basis of the realization that we are the Son's of God.
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I applaude this, there aren´t many Christians that are able to say this. In order to cross reference the Old and New Testament I recommand you buy a Jewish bible translation. Preferably one that has side notes from the Septuagint and Talmud.

When it comes to faith I decided I had no use for it. God is something I experience. If I experience God, why would I need faith? The realization that I am a Son of God comes from the value I perceive in myself and consequently in others.
 
ChiNa said:
I applaude this, there aren´t many Christians that are able to say this. In order to cross reference the Old and New Testament I recommand you buy a Jewish bible translation. Preferably one that has side notes from the Septuagint and Talmud.

When it comes to faith I decided I had no use for it. God is something I experience. If I experience God, why would I need faith? The realization that I am a Son of God comes from the value I perceive in myself and consequently in others.
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If this is what God tells you then that is what he requires of you. I feel through the Holy Spirit that what God requires of me is faith.

I will keep in mind what you mentioned about a the Septaugint and Talmud.

I am curious btw, what is the major difference between the Christian faith and the Judaistic one?
 
Sipher77 said:
I dont help others because I fear God, I do it because I can sympthathize with their pain, for they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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You are god. Now stop capitalizing it until you can clearly explain why god is necessary and needed.
 
Sipher77 said:
What is the uber-xian? There are different contexts for the same basic sentence, for you have to read the other passages to see what God means.

Jesus himself says to Satan in reference to Satan telling him to jump off a high temple to see if the angels will save him. Jesus then states "It is written, You shall not test the Lord your God."

So i dont know what you meant by the uber-xian or what not.
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I was refering to post #146 by Togowack in which he clearly states that "the bible says to test god." So, we have to "TRUE BELIEVERS" (as you refer to your kind) that have vastly differing opinions on correct interpretation of the bible. Now refer to my original argument.
 
Celios said:
Yeah, cause science makes shit up, calls it fact and then gives up on finding any evidence to support or disprove its working model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wmap

I swear to god, if you can't tell the difference between the legitimacy of scientific inquiry and religious decrees, you don't deserve to have internet access.
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As soon as science starts proving some of these big ideas, I'll revoke my internet access (lolnerdlol). Start with gravity.

I know there is a difference between faith and AWESOME scientific method. And I know there is a difference between the SUPER passing down of academic knowledge and religious practicing. Unfortunately, nobody has any real answers, and both sides get awfully hung up despite that.
 
Uruk-Khai said:
I was refering to post #146 by Togowack in which he clearly states that "the bible says to test god." So, we have to "TRUE BELIEVERS" (as you refer to your kind) that have vastly differing opinions on correct interpretation of the bible. Now refer to my original argument.
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Ah, I see what he means now. This is from a website that I googled to try and find the context of what Togowack meant.

"Moses tells us--Jesus tells us--that we must not put God to the test. To test God means much more than trying to get Him to do a miracle; to test God is to insist that He prove that He is trustworthy. To test God is to look at today's difficulties and say, "A loving God would never let me suffer in this way. Maybe if things get better, then I can trust Him." To test God is to ask, as Israel did, "Is God with us or not?" God has shown us that He is with us; He has nothing to prove to us. If we refuse to see it, we are as blind as Israel was in the wilderness."

http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/bible/articles/testing.html

I have not found a biblical passage that directly states to test God, so maybe Togowack can aid me and quoting something where the Bible says that. Until I find a passage like that, this line of inquiry will have to be put on hold.
 
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WildKnight said:
faith is believing in something that can't be proven, if a scientists admits to have faith in the big bang theory then they can't claim religious people are any less right.
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The difference being the scientist knows it's a theory (always up for disproof) and the religious person believes it as absolute, unquestionable, truth.
 
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