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afex
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Old
241 - 03-29-2004, 19:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonspider
exactly,

im not sure dont quote me

but in those new videos i thought i saw when players DIE some sort of health reward....maybe im crazy
don't compare anything gameplay wise in SP to MP.

in SP you're not supposed to die.
 
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KineticPoet
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Old
242 - 03-29-2004, 19:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonspider
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I HATE THE SHOOTABLE FLAG

dev members ....is the flag shootable?!??!!
No, at least not in the way that you're thinking,
KP
 
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Undisciplined
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Old
243 - 03-29-2004, 19:32
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I don't think the repair kit is that non-intuitive. Perhaps it was a bit in Tribes 1 because there was no built in indicator stating whether you have one or not, but I assume in T:V there will be HUD elements similar to Tribes 2 telling you if you have one. Even for game demos it is easy to have a quick tutorial or even set of screens teaching fundamentals like using a health kit. I don't buy lack of intuitiveness as being a strong argument for losing the repair kit.
 
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axeofblood
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Old
244 - 03-29-2004, 19:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
This is a good example of a point that has not been raised yet. Health kits give an advantage to people wielding one-shot kill weapons,
KP

Kp...ho in close quaters needed that advatage just to stay alive...The armour was big and caused you to walk slower and ski slower and yet you could take all kinds of hell to get where you need to be with enough life to make an impact against the team you were playing with...Yea sb had issues with heavy spawn camping but that was easy to defend against with well placer turrets..In theory a heavy will be religated to more defensive rolls like hofing and less offensive rolls and I never had any problems killing heavys with a well placed body block and a mine disc could not handle.You should know that as you done it to me oh so many times.
 
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Krytoss
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Old
245 - 03-29-2004, 19:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
This is a good example of a point that has not been raised yet. Health kits give an advantage to people wielding one-shot kill weapons,
KP
well, perhaps you're including the BFG9000 as one of the new weapons, but wouldnt the only OSOK weapon be the mortar? I don't see this being a huge problem
 
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poisonspider
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Old
246 - 03-29-2004, 19:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
No, at least not in the way that you're thinking,
KP
huh?
what you mean

.......

i mean movable......with weapons

...how else can it be "shootable" or movable

or whatever
im confusing myself
 
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Last edited by poisonspider; 03-29-2004 at 19:45..
RegisteredFruit
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Old
247 - 03-29-2004, 19:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
There's a difference between "hard" and "intuitive." I totally agree that the repair kit, for basic purposes, doesn't take much (if any) skill to use. As long as you know it's there, it's easy.

But new players don't know it's there. New players also don't tend to talk to other players, at least at first, and they might not have good friends who can enlighten them. You can't prove otherwise to me because I've seen it with my own eyes for years. Yes, we could teach it in SP, but lots of new players don't play SP.
You could include hints in the loading screen or in pop up windows, etc. You could have these hints (toggleable, of course) pop up on screen and tell you "use your repair kit" if you are are damaged and have one. In game hints are very important for new players anyways given the complexity of Tribes.

Quote:
New players also have a tendency to play demos before they buy. Demos don't have full SP campaigns. And if someone doesn't like a demo, they're probably not going to buy the game.

So if they're severely disadvantaged in a demo because they don't know a certain little piece of information that, in your own words, is EASY for others (who are "in the know") to use to their advantage, they are more likely to get frustrated.

"I'm good at other FPS games...I accept that I need to learn to ski and jetpack and shoot these new weapons, but why do I always die so easily?" Frustrated players give up. Players who give up don't buy the game.
Getting owned by people who have played Tribes for 6 years and watching them fly by at 1000kph when they can barely ski will be much more of a turnoff than forgetting to use a repair kit. You can't call a repair kit that big of a frustration compared to the many more complex parts of Tribes.

Quote:
I agree. Find a quote where I said that the repair pack is "hard."

You'll have to keep trying if you hope to convince the decision-makers, and I'm afraid it won't help to reiterate what you've already said...you'll need new arguments,
KP
It's sad that you're removing such a major aspect of Tribes just because it's something new players may have a little trouble with. Again, hints easily solve this issue. If you don't want to spend time developing a large amount of hints, then just have one for the repair kit.

I seriously question where the heads of these decision makers are... but I won't go there.
 
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KineticPoet
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Old
248 - 03-29-2004, 19:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krytoss
well, perhaps you're including the BFG9000 as one of the new weapons, but wouldnt the only OSOK weapon be the mortar? I don't see this being a huge problem
I stated it generally. And I didn't give my opinion about whether this advantage is a good or a bad thing. I just said it's a point that hasn't been raised yet,
KP
 
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Rabid Poop
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249 - 03-29-2004, 19:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
But new players don't know it's there. New players also don't tend to talk to other players, at least at first, and they might not have good friends who can enlighten them. You can't prove otherwise to me because I've seen it with my own eyes for years. Yes, we could teach it in SP, but lots of new players don't play SP.
Make a tutorial that you have to complete a pre-requisite for playing online.

fudgeing done.
 
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RegisteredFruit
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Old
250 - 03-29-2004, 19:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
This is a good example of a point that has not been raised yet. Health kits give an advantage to people wielding one-shot kill weapons,
KP
If it's like the previous games where mortars blow people into little pieces (without salvageable kits) half the time, this isn't as much of an advantage. Also, you should be able to eat the repair kit even if you have full health to prevent people from stealing it. My health kit buy/use script does this if you aren't in an inv.
 
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Nil
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251 - 03-29-2004, 19:53
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I agree with the noob hint suggestion, you could easliy have a togglable bubble hint like aspect giving new players hints of the non-intuitive aspects of the game.

Anyone seeking to play a game they havent before should be expecting new things, and looking for them.

I know when i "discovered" rep kits in t1, and have taught others of their existance, it was a rewarding feeling of more depth to the game, an essential aspect, that has kept me into this game for so long.
 
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Thrax Panda
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Old
252 - 03-29-2004, 19:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Reed
Thrax and KP may have experience with the Tribes community, but the full extent of their competence at actually controlling the future of the franchise remains to be demonstrated.
Of course, it would be better off in the hands of Ben Reed, and Tribal War
 
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Nil
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Old
253 - 03-29-2004, 19:56
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There are other ways then one shot kills to take someone out before they can use their kit. Bouncing a gren and then timing a disc, or simply two people shooting. Being distracted. All those are skilled plays that should be rewarded, with a kit : P
 
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Blotter
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Old
254 - 03-29-2004, 19:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonspider
huh?
what you mean

.......

i mean movable......with weapons

...how else can it be "shootable" or movable

or whatever
im confusing myself
maybe it only bounces in (y axis only) place when u shoot it, instead of all over (x+y axis). i always wished it was like that in t2 (or t1 even) :/
 
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Krytoss
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255 - 03-29-2004, 20:00
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I'm really starting to get pissed off using the argument about "its not intuitive" or "its clumsy". Christ, put a "newbie mode" on that gives hints about this kind of stuff until you turn it off. I wouldn't mind if this wasnt the reason being given for differant changes, but it keeps getting pulled out.

I'm doing my best to keep my hopes up that this isn't a dumbing down of the game, I know that skiing and tactical play are the pillars of this game, not little things like repair kits or targeting lasers. I wont mind if the devs succeed in smoothing out the learning curve, as long as that learning curve provides the same opportunities we have in t1/t2 for continuous advancement.
 
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Shoddy
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Old
256 - 03-29-2004, 20:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonspider
...how else can it be "shootable" or movable
I'm guessing he's hinting that when you possess the flag, you throw it by selecting it as a "weapon" and "shooting" it.
 
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KineticPoet
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257 - 03-29-2004, 20:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegisteredFruit
Getting owned by people who have played Tribes for 6 years and watching them fly by at 1000kph when they can barely ski will be much more of a turnoff than forgetting to use a repair kit. You can't call a repair kit that big of a frustration compared to the many more complex parts of Tribes.
I can, and I will! Skiing and jetting are the heart of Tribes. They're in the game, no discussion. And we're doing our best to help players understand them. You can see skiing and jetting in T:V. They are visible, tangible, potentially understandable abilities that players use to move in a game that is about freedom of movement. They're a bit frustrating by design because it's challenging to become very good at them.

Health kits are virtually invisible to everyone but the person who knows about them and uses them. And in a game about freedom of movement where new players already have their hands full learning about skiing and jetting, expecting them to also know about and manage their highly advantageous health kit key is asking a lot. Asking too much? 'Tis a matter of opinion, and this case yours differs from the decision-makers whose heads you seek.

My opinion is that I like repair kits but I accept that they're clunky from a general design point of view. I like scavenging health kits from newbs but it makes me feel a bit dirty. If not having them means increasing the probability that more people will play the game rather than less, I'm in favour of it. I'll lose that little bit of satisfaction but I also won't feel as dirty.

Quote:
It's sad that you're removing such a major aspect of Tribes
In my opinion it's not a major aspect of Tribes. Skiing, jetting, freedom of movement, prediction-based weapons, choice of equipment, deployables, high speeds, packs, generators, chasing and escorting are, in my opinion, major aspects of Tribes,
KP
 
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Space Wrangler
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Old
258 - 03-29-2004, 20:06
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No repair kits, to an extent, would make base campage more difficult. I'm sure this makes the never-go-0 LD happy. But, I haven't played the game, so we'll see how it plays out.
 
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Nil
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Old
259 - 03-29-2004, 20:14
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Kits being presented invisably is a choice you make in the creation of the game.

While i agree their existance isn't a major aspect of tribes, it is however a skill and an enjoyable aspect that should have more reasoning behind its removal then because they weren't intuitive before.

I don't know why really i'm arguing the point, I've always played t1, I tried t2 for about 2 days, put it back in the box and put it away. So I prolly won't even be involved in any way too this new game. However, i feel that the greatest complaint that the people here raise, is that we've played a game forever it seems, investing that time and effort. I keep learning new things in t1 almost on a daily basis. Perhaps not on the level of discovering something like sking, but a new route, or a trick in dueling, simple things that keep the game interesting and new to me, even after 5 years. Do what you must to get the new blood a new game needs, but ensure a depth that will keep them, and us, from feeling we haven't badly invested.
 
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Ixiterra
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Old
260 - 03-29-2004, 20:15
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Ok, I have a solution. Make a pseudo repair kit for T1/T2 vets who furiously hit the H button in every FPS known to man. Basically, all it does is make your health bar go up, but all it is really doing is stretching your health. Example: if you have 50% health and use H, it goes up to 65%, but you'll still only take 50% damage before you die. 1 CG bullet will take 2% as opposed to 1.75% damage. That way we can feel like our H button is still doing something, even if it's not.

And I'm dead serious.
 
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