taking wow (and mmo's) too far

TseTse said:
I respect your point, but the thing is... you cannot play wow in 10 minute intervals at all. Come on...

CS has 3 minute rounds. What you do beyond that is up to you. You have no need to practice whatsoever. That's not relevant at all. The design is not based on persistent world character development and thus there is no implicit need to time sink. Even if you need to practice, you dont have to sit and play 8 hours a day to stay sharp.

The game is like minesweeper in how it sucks you in, as is the case with most games.

Short, repetitive and easy to just relax with. Obviously you can obsess over any game, but the design of a game like CS is particularly strong because it's got that minesweeper 3-minute thing going.

"Just one more game" is the procrastination mechanic. It's easy to say that when the game has short rounds and isnt designed to last mega-hours.

WoW and MMOs are a new breed of game. Different psychology. Different type of absorbtion Different entertainment mechanics than pretty much any human game thus far.

When somebody cant stop playing tetris or minesweeper or tribes... we called that procrastination.

When somebody cant stop playing wow or eq.... we call it addiction.

There's a reason.

In the world of "games" i guess poker and gambling is probably the closest comparison and has its own addiction issues. Poker isnt something you really walk away from and can do to procrastinate. You build up and increase your stakes in it, so it's a decent analogy i suppose. The same obession and focus on achievements are obviously parallels as well. Hmmm...
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you just contradicted yourself here

addiction is addiction, the relevence to wether or not it's an MMO or an FPS or mine sweeper is irelevent, if someone is addicted to the game that's their fault

just because tribes and minesweeper have 3 minute rounds doesen't make them any different then wow, it's the people who can't control themselves that's the problem

compare how many hours you've spent playing tribes in its hay day as compared to how much you play wow, at least for me, it's nearly the same

to further my point, what is the difference between the guy who logs onto wow, does a game of WSG, logs off and goes out with his friends, and a guy who plays 2 maps in tribes

now tell me the difference between the hardcore raider and the CAL cs player who plays all day every day to get better

here's a hint : there is none
 
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i don't feel like responding to ever rebuttle, but no....you can't play WoW casually and get anywhere. You can't play any true MMORPG casually and get anywhere.

You can't play WoW like CS, don't try to argue that you can.
 
Slobax said:
i don't feel like responding to ever rebuttle, but no....you can't play WoW casually and get anywhere. You can't play any true MMORPG casually and get anywhere.

You can't play WoW like CS, don't try to argue that you can.
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wow doesn't = raiding

there is tons of other shit you can do, i know tons of people, both online and irl who don't do anything except pvp a couple times a week
 
Okay I finally got around to reading the blog/article/whatever. And all I have to ask...

"What the fuck are you people arguing over?"

The guy basically told the truth, and moved on. That's it. Is there any argument over it? Are you people actually defending Blizzard and trying to convince people MMORPGS are not a time-sink?
 
Rouailtagh said:
Okay I finally got around to reading the blog/article/whatever. And all I have to ask...

"What the fuck are you people arguing over?"

The guy basically told the truth, and moved on. That's it. Is there any argument over it? Are you people actually defending Blizzard and trying to convince people MMORPGS are not a time-sink?
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I don't think any of us trust you to read either the original article, or the thread, and actually comprehend any of it. You're just that stupid.
 
TseTse said:
I respect your point, but the thing is... you cannot play wow in 10 minute intervals at all. Come on...

CS has 3 minute rounds. What you do beyond that is up to you. You have no need to practice whatsoever. That's not relevant at all. The design is not based on persistent world character development and thus there is no implicit need to time sink. Even if you need to practice, you dont have to sit and play 8 hours a day to stay sharp.

The game is like minesweeper in how it sucks you in, as is the case with most games.

Short, repetitive and easy to just relax with. Obviously you can obsess over any game, but the design of a game like CS is particularly strong because it's got that minesweeper 3-minute thing going.

"Just one more game" is the procrastination mechanic. It's easy to say that when the game has short rounds and isnt designed to last mega-hours.

WoW and MMOs are a new breed of game. Different psychology. Different type of absorbtion Different entertainment mechanics than pretty much any human game thus far.

When somebody cant stop playing tetris or minesweeper or tribes... we called that procrastination.

When somebody cant stop playing wow or eq.... we call it addiction.

There's a reason.

In the world of "games" i guess poker and gambling is probably the closest comparison and has its own addiction issues. Poker isnt something you really walk away from and can do to procrastinate. You build up and increase your stakes in it, so it's a decent analogy i suppose. The same obession and focus on achievements are obviously parallels as well. Hmmm...
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You can log on and do a single 10-minute quest and then log out :shrug:

If you want to get to 60 you spend longer at a sitting.

If you want to pwn noobs in CS you spend longer playing.

If you want to clear the biggest map possible with the most mines evar you keep trying until you get really lucky.

If you want to get big muscles you spend longer at the gym.

If you want to get straight-A's at school you study longer.

WoW may "lend itself" better to long intervals of playtime, but if you want to excel at anything in life, you have to put in time, or just be born pro (me duh). Some may be "healthier" than others, but in the world of video games, there is always more time to be spent.
 
TseTse said:
Again... you miss the point and show lack of sincerity to just admit folks on this thread have a point. All you've done is flame them for talking sincerely on the matter.

Grow up and perhaps look in the mirror, bro.
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great intro, i'm going to take you seriously!

TseTse said:
Yes, i do think it is sad that folks at say... age 17-25 are completely absorbed in video games. Perhaps in your usual mode of not actually READING what you fuckin respond to you didnt notice that i was briefly a mud addict myself at that age, back in 1991 or so. I know the costs on your life when you get absorbed in a game at that age. The price is very steep.
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No, you know the cost of your life, and you have no basis to transfer your experience on anyone else. the difference between you and I is that you seem to characterize people automatically based on your experiences and i'm simply demanding that unless you have deep and insightful information about strangers' lives you should probably get off their fucking nuts and let live.

TseTse said:
I also worry about folks in my guilds who have obviously had families and were totally ignoring them or pretending that massive time invested in WoW was easily "balanced" with their RL. It's sad. You can flame me for "judging" them but im being honest. It is sad and i'm not alone in being concerned. Many guilds try to mellow out a bit to make sure folks dont have the chance to raid too much, literally. My current guild, for example, has a "cap time" on raiding so that they absolutely will not go later than a certain hour on scheduled raids. Silly little things like that make a difference, as well as having a few mature folks on vent who can perhaps say things like "ok, time to go do real life stuff" and remind everybody that this is just a game.
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What does the game have to do with people making priority mistakes in their lives? People have been doing it for thousands of years. My great grandfather abandoned his family at birth, i have uncles that left their families for sex drugs and alcohol... games are just another excuse that weak and irresponsible people use... again, blame people on a case by case basis, not software.

TseTse said:
Most guilds that have been around a long time have negotiated these issues and seen people burn out.

All we are doing here is talking about it honestly. If you cant do that, fine...
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I am talking, except you never like reading anything other than "yes tsetse your walls of text are compelling kill all those jews!"

I'm not preaching a polar stance, I'm just saying that you can't arbitrarily draw a line beyond your playstyles and label people without deeper insight. Just because you or other people can't handle video games, that doesn't mean anyone that plays the same amount of time as a loser that left his family will be equally as destructive.
 
Calder said:
You can log on and do a single 10-minute quest and then log out :shrug:
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:rolleyes:

Name 1 person who does this.

I'm amazed at how absurd some of these arguments are, honestly. This is just hypothetical silliness.

As somebody above said, you cannot play wow like CS.

I've tried it.

The best way to play it like CS (or whatever) is to just twink. You make a twink - then stop caring about loot, leveling, questing, grinding honor... and you just log in to play a match of WSG. I did that for a while to keep it casual. I played other games at that time too. It's STILL not the same...

In theory, i'd agree but we're not talking about theory.

Calder said:
WoW may "lend itself" better to long intervals of playtime, but if you want to excel at anything in life, you have to put in time, or just be born pro (me duh). Some may be "healthier" than others, but in the world of video games, there is always more time to be spent.
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It more than lends itself to long intervals of playtime. It's the nature of the persistent world. It's why we play.

Indeed, there's always more time to be spent.

Now, that goes for ANY game. On that we agree. Somebody might play CS just as much as they play WoW. In other words, people can be unhealthy and the video games are just a mechanism for us to be stupid. It's not really the games' fault per se.

However, CS and MMOs arent the same in the sense that i'd strongly argue that somebody playing CS for 10 hours a day is straight up procrastinating whereas somebody playing an MMO for 10 hours a day is an addict. It's more like a gambling addict than a chess 'addict.' I'm saying that one of these cases of "more time spent" is much more unhealthy due to the nature of the game and the psychology involved although obviously WoW addiction isnt going to have the same necessary penalties as gambling addiction.

And to be even more blunt... i think WoW and EQ addictions are just the start. We'll see more and more MMOs with more and more compelling persistent worlds and endless shit to obsess about. When MMO addicts can find ways to make RL money and survive, this shit will really get out of control. :)

That's a hypothetical, too.

But if there are future MMOs where even more subscribers exist... and you can survive financially by playing the game somehow, it will pose even more compelling ethical questions. What would be wrong with MMO addiction if it pays the bills? It's akin to the gambling addiction dilemma (i.e. if somebody 'gets ahead' then is their addiction bad?)
 
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Pagy said:
No, you know the cost of your life, and you have no basis to transfer your experience on anyone else.
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Good grief.

Do you honestly fuckin believe this? My lord....

If there is a person playing WoW 10 hours a day in my guild... and i know he is blowing off his family... or college cuz he SAYS so... we know the cost to HIS life pretty clearly in spite of your continuing to be a retard on this matter. There are many people who openly talk about this shit ingame. Heck, half the people i pvp with snap cuz of the honor grind and i know 3 more people who've backed out of pvp lately cuz they have said they were blowing RL shit off too much. THEY SAID IT.

What's your fuckin point, pagy?

Page after page you're been in denial that ANYBODY can have a WoW problem that affects their real lives. You've attacked anybody who even hints as much.

Amazing. Look in the mirror.
 
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how can you seriously say that if someone is playing 10 hours of CS a day and another person is playing wow 10 hours a day that it's different at all

you're making yourself look retarded
 
TseTse said:
Good grief.

Do you honestly fuckin believe this? My lord....

If there is a person playing WoW 10 hours a day in my guild... and i know he is blowing off his family... or college cuz he SAYS so... we know the cost to HIS life pretty clearly in spite of your continuing to be a retard on this matter. There are many people who openly talk about this shit ingame. Heck, half the people i pvp with snap cuz of the honor grind and i know 3 more people who've backed out of pvp lately cuz they have said they were blowing RL shit off too much. THEY SAID IT.

What's your fuckin point, pagy?

Page after page you're been in denial that ANYBODY can have a WoW problem that affects their real lives. You've attacked anybody who even hints as much.

Amazing. Look in the mirror.
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Pagy is not saying that WoW doesnt have a negative effect on other peoples lives. He is saying that you cannot judge what other people do by your standards. Its their life and they can do what they want with it and we dont really have a right to judge them for it.

If some guy is happy for going to school and getting a good job, congrats to him. If another is happy working part time and living in an MMO how can you say its that different? they are doing what they want with their lives and they are happy. Maybe you would not be happy doing what they do, but that doesnt matter because its their life not yours.
 
snow said:
Pagy is not saying that WoW doesnt have a negative effect on other peoples lives. He is saying that you cannot judge what other people do by your standards. Its their life and they can do what they want with it and we dont really have a right to judge them for it.

If some guy is happy for going to school and getting a good job, congrats to him. If another is happy working part time and living in an MMO how can you say its that different? they are doing what they want with their lives and they are happy. Maybe you would not be happy doing what they do, but that doesnt matter because its their life not yours.
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qft
 
TseTse fucking owned this thread

he's doing the arguing i'm too lazy and don't care enough to do. But he has pretty much covered it. And it's great because he plays WoW, and is still able to argue both sides sort of.

for those of you who are too ignorant to accept it:
BLIZZARD BUILT THE GAME AROUND A MODEL THAT MAKES EVERYTHING TAKE LONG AS SHIT. EVERYTHING IN THE GAME IS DESIGNED TO BE A TIME SINK ON PURPOSE, IT'S HOW MMO'S WORK, HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY (KEEPING PEOPLE PLAYING LONGER, LOGGING MORE HOURS, MORE MONTHS).

For those of you who are saying you can log in and do a quest in 10 minutes and log out.....shut up and stop grasping at straws to defend the game. Yeah you can be a lvl 12 and just do 10 minutes of quests....but the game is designed for lvl 60, and this argument is about the end game, which is all MMO's are about really. In your theory of 10 minute playing times, you'll basically just have to quit the game once you get to beef of the game, level 60, because nothing can be accomplished at lvl 60 in 10 minutes.

WoW rewards time spent (wasted). It's a sad truth to most MMO's. Skill comes backseat to time spent sadly, and this is what is driving me to quit MMO's until a true skill based, not time spent, game comes out (no, not Darkfall)
 
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I'm pretty sure that every game on the market has the goal of making you play it a lot, no matter what genre.
 
Calder said:
I'm pretty sure that every game on the market has the goal of making you play it a lot, no matter what genre.
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Which is exactly why i fail to understand why anyone would bring it up; it's a moot point.

It's like claiming a long distance provider wants you to talk a lot on the phone.

Wow, very insightful!
 
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