[T:V] The sensor system

Basically everything has already been mentioned, so I'll make this brief.

I like the new sensor system. I think it'll add a lot to the game. However, I really dislike the flag indicator. I think it should be removed completely, along with the trails.
 
well, i think you need to have either the trail or the icon. Having both seems redundant when the flag is being carried, or when the carrier is hunkered down the basement somewhere
 
I was dreading the upcoming changes to the sensor network when I heard of it being 'simplified' a good while back. Now I'm not.

T1/T2's sensor network was a beautiful and useful system, but it was complex. Summarizing how it worked for my tribe-mates took a 10-page document with pictures, and even then it wasn't information that all of them could recall readily in a match, and therefore make good use of. Particularly, the bits on armor optiks and optiks-zoom and how they affected the network were information that was hard to make stick. Our farmers took the information to heart, but that's because they were exposed to it all the time, and they made some intricately deadly turret webs with it. (It was great fun to have a set of turrets that wouldn't fire on most people, but would chew up in a second or two anyone that came at the base from a particular angle, all triggered by a single out-of-the way sensor)

What I like about this change is that it's simple; on or off, full-map coverage, with easily visible and understandble consequences of each state. Having just one will certainly save our farmers some time. What I'm curious to know is if having your team's sensor destroyed impacts deployable turrets... will they acquire and track targets more slowly, or not be able to acquire targets at all? (Sorry if that's been asked already.)
 
Nordramor said:
The flag finder did make cap routes a little more predictable and slightly less intersting on some maps. However, regardless of the flag finder, back-to-front routes were almost always more effective than front-to-back cap routes. The flag finder just made the less-effective cap routes even less effective.

How the flag finders impact T2 Classic:

1. Cappers have to spend more time preparing for better routes. Impromtu grabs usually fail unless you had full health and could disk-jump away. The disk-jump grab was still somewhat effective, especially on smaller cluster maps.
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This is all true nordy but it made capping really sad and 1 dimensional IMO. Capping in T1 was about skill, improv., and most of all sking good routes. With classic it typically came down to who could find the best jump out of a shrike/fall off a big hill 2 disc jump route which didnt take much time to create and usually took the creativity of a 3 year old to find.

Nordramor said:
2. Standoffs/turtles ended quicker and teams got more flag returns in general.
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Agreed This part I enjoy why i'd like to see a flag finder possibly if a chaser is within X personal sensor range of the flag. Stopping hiding and promoting escorting but still allowing a great capper to 'dissappear' for a while until a chaser can get on his ass. Unlike classic where you can just intercept instead of actually chase.

Nordramor said:
3. Sniping and chaining at a medium distance became more practical way to chase cappers.
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Yep the funny part is actually trying to watch some of the best T2 LD ski/chase.

Nordramor said:
4. Sniping at a long distance comprised only an incredibly small number of capper kills. Many maps had hills/mountains that prevented this tactic anyway.
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I can think of one #1 match where this was a factor right off the top of my head. Sniping cross map to a target you cant visually see is bad IMO theres no defense the flag carrier has against it other than hiding. This can promote turtling depending on terrain.

Nordramor said:
5. Most maps still had plenty of caps and capouts occured regularly on some maps.

6. Escorting was easier and there were usually more people involved, on both teams, on midfield scrambles for a loose flag.
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Escorting would be the same since all friendly IFFs are always on screen. There were great loose flag scrambles in T1 also because the teams communicated and had chasers on the cappers ass to begin with and escorters knew where their capper was going through communication or pre-set routes. Thats just breeds more intelligent chasers/escorts.

Nordramor said:
The real loss is of the free-form impromtu capping and the need to guard against the less-effective front-to-back routes. In exchange for this loss, you get less/shorter flag standoffs and easier-to-coordinate flag defense and escorting.

In the end, I'd rather have the flag indicators on at all times. Making escorting easier and ending standoffs sooner offset the other loses.
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Extending on what I wrote above I'd think you'd agree as a caster that watching a LD stay on a cappers ass move for move is 100X more exciting for the players and the audience than a guy standing at his base shooting at an icon. If there is a LD on his ass the icon could stay on the capper for chasers within X range. Then he'd have to communicate using voice binds or maby as stated above have the flag IFF flash randomly for the other teammates to see since they do have a teammate within range of the flag.

I just think having chasers ontop of your flag leaving base should be rewarded. Not just oh well we can go get him whenever we want because we always know where he is.
 
DarkJedi said:
Leave the flag indicator in the game..if you leave it out, it's only a matter of time until the cheaters put it back in. Better to let everyone benefit from it than just the cheaters.
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:rolleyes:

I guess they should package autobeacon and LSpiros autoaim too, huh? I mean, if someone that cheats is able to have them, then it's better to just let everyone have them, right?
 
thats a big post stan ;)

just a side point, even in Pubs people communicate where flags are dropped, that nice glowing aura around the flag helped as well.
 
Sanchez said:
thats a big post stan ;)

just a side point, even in Pubs people communicate where flags are dropped, that nice glowing aura around the flag helped as well.
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Yeah I like the glowing flag myself TV :)
how u been bud?
 
BrEaDmAn86 said:
I have some negative and positive thoughts on the idea... it should definately be left as an option for map makers, but I'm not sure out of the box it should be an option.

The fun of tribes is not about guessing whether the person a mile infront of you is a friend or a foe. Tribes is already an insanely complicated game, especially when compared to the likes of UT, Q3, or CS. Adding the player indicators helps to simplify an overly complicated game so at least even in the most hopeless situations, you'll be able to quickly identify friend from foe. By clearly labeling enemies, fighting becomes much more common. How many times have you played a match where you were skiing to the enemy base, and you pass an enemy skiing over to your base? With the red indicator present, a fight is much more likely to occur, and well... fights are fun.

No matter how much IG, you, or even Dynamix want(ed) Tribes to be an insanely team based teamwork game, forcing such teamwork elements like keeping a sensor up is just plain not fun, unless you are a super fan of defense. We already have inventories, turrets, and generators that we should be paranoid about protecting when rapes occur. This just adds one more elements to that list. Without invetories or turrets or generators, you can still fight and see the enemy and have a ball. But without sensors, you even lose the motivation of fighting the enemy. You know as well as I do that if you see two people, one without an indicator and one with, you'll go for the one with first. They are more threatening, hence more motivation to fight.

This kind of leads to my other point of TKs... I'm sure you've thought about it, but with indicators, being able to tell who is a TK and who isn't is quite easy. You know that the person who is tking can clearly tell the other person has a green thing over their head hence they are purposely doing it. Without indicators, I see TKs happening more often accidentaly (which could cause false accusations and kicks) and the people that really are TKing could get let off the hook more often ("there wasn't an indicator! I couldnt' tell..."). I dunno I just see this as presenting a problem.

Other than that, maybe this whole sensor idea should be gametype based. In a CTF map I don't think I'd particularly enjoy it in the least bit. There are already too many things to focus on. But on other gametypes it could be fun... I couldn't really say cause I havn't played a lot of the new ones though.

T:V is a team game with jetpacks and guns, but that doesn't mean teamwork should be forced on a player preventing the cowboy from killing his fair share of enemies. If you guys want a larger audience, focusing the teamplay more tightly won't help. Bf1942, UT2k4, Americas Army, CS all have teamplay elements, but you have to admit that the majority of all those players only pub and are to a large extent cowboys. They wont' want to pick up T:V if it hinders their ability to cowboy. Tribes1 and 2 were filled and still are filled with cowboys that work for themselves in order to help the team as a whole, and I just see this sensor thing as taking away from the whole "random duel in the middle of the game" occurence. For the teamplay lovers, this idea is a godsend, but the pure teamplay finatics are few compared to the majority, though they are quite the vocal ones. Adding this sensor setup will either increase teamplay or make the cowboys mad. I forsee the latter.

I'm big on teamplay but when I'm on a pub, I like to cowboy. I think this is an extremely intruiging idea and honestly if it is implemented fully, I won't be too upset and it won't keep me from playing the game. I just think it could hurt the game in other ways and bug a lot of other people, and even bug me at certain points during the game.

This might be one of the things we should wait till Beta to see whether it's good or not.

EDIT: I realize green IFFs will still be in place even if the sensors are gone. I just have a hard time trusting that when I shoot someone without an IFF, they won't be friendly. I need identification! haha...
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I am addressing the BOLD section.




This new game, T:V as you I am sure know is completely different then both T1 and T2. It involves different armor types, which makes distinguising easier.
 
The flag finder just dumbs down the game, simple as that.

As for breadman's post, iv never had a problem telling enemys from friends on tribes. Team usualy being BE and DS, me not being color blind, and having zoome bound to E and all. And like stage said, its easyer to tell armor types and such now. Another form of dumbing the game down for casual gamers, limiting the learning curve.
 
you dont need a flag finder..

its on the guy that came in and took it

if you werent there to see him grab it, then hes the one red triangle being chased by 3 green ones on your commandscreen


if noone on your team is there to see him grab or chase, then you dont deserve to know where he is
 
I like the sound of it all.

However, something that came to mind (that may not neccessarily be bad) is the following.

If the flag finder is in fact implemented and used when the sensor is up- You have your first of the two sides: the noob side. Not because it takes less skill [neccessarily]. But because it appeals to those who haven't been playing tribes forever, more. They will be battling a lot more then a veteran player to keep that up. Which leads to the 2nd of the two sides.

The veteran player who doesn't care if his radar is up or down. It sounded to me like when your radar is down, you can still distinguish your teammates. So veteran players will have little issue with this. And those of us who are veteran and aren't use to a flag finder anyways will also not care much that the radar is down. What this might end up doing is causing a gap between new comers and the vets- New comers want the radar up, vets don't care and don't bother defending them because they're already use to and skileld at hunting down a flag carrier without something telling them where the carrier is.
 
I like the new concept KP sounds good and it adds some more stragtegy to the game, not forced either.

I'll reserve further judgement and cristism untill Beta though.

I'm sure thigns will change a little bit but I hope not too much, this really sounds interesting. I want fresh and new things. ;)
 
PLEASE READ THIS, LOL I LOVE MY IDEA MAKE COMMENTS!

Well we now have a little corner hud, so if our sensor is up, and we are in a base or outdoors,we can see the enemies on the hud, correct?

This automatically makes it more usefull, in the previous Tribes games, you had to open up the map which takes the full screen, and you could only see an enemy if he was within the sensor radius. But now the sensor radius is the whole map, correct? If so, this is a great idea, all you need to do is implement sensor jammers, and this time they will become very very usefull: Defence would lay them so incoming cappers could not tell exactly where they are.

Those are my thoughts, Oh and flag indicators are lame. I think that there should be no flag indicator. Keep the ribbon trail, but the ribbon trail should only be up when the sensor is up, that is a big enough advantage.
 
Wulfen said:
Whichever is made default will be busier.
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People will play on the servers that make the game more enjoyable, and that often means playing on ones with modifications to default game settings. Take Enemy Territory for instance: XP save servers are more popular because nobody likes losing their XP on an accidental disconnect. It isn't default for the game but it makes it more enjoyable.

In a game of Capture the Flag players (outside the small community of T1 groupies) aren't going to want to spend time hunting for the flag during standoffs and turtles. If the mutator option is there for a permanent flag finder that duplicates T2's behavior, only the T1 groupies are going to be on the servers without it.
 
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