[T:V] The sensor system

I think what this does is make the sensor just as important as the generators (we still have generators right?).

I don't know why, but only having one sensor rubs me the wrong way. I can see the logic in only having 1 sensor, but something about it just doesn't seem...right. I guess we'll all find out in beta.
 
KineticPoet said:
Or if it turns out that people never want enemy indicators or flag icons, mapmakers can remove sensors from maps altogether,
KP
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Now I hate this idea. I won't play a Tribes game without a flag finder.
 
KineticPoet said:
The idea is that if you don't want the enemy to have a flag finder, you destroy their sensor. Or if it turns out that people never want enemy indicators or flag icons, mapmakers can remove sensors from maps altogether,
KP
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This post from another thread basically sums up why I dont like flag finders.

Tycho said:
I just watched the video and all I can say is...the only question I asked when T:V was announced was if there would be a flag indicator included in the game...I was told there were no plans to include one...well obviously plans do have the tendancy to change, but I had hoped they wouldn't on this occasion.

O.K., the flag finder DOES allow everyone to always know where their objective is, but that is also the problem. T2 became a back-cap only game. There was no way that you could get away from even a semi organized and competent defense unless you were going directly away from them. Even then, people just aimed at the flying flag on their screen w/ the laser rifle. It took one of the most interesting aspects of the game of Tribes (not t1 or t2, but tribes in general, just so someone can't say "Well this isn't T*"): the round-about route.

That is, because everyone knew where their flag was 99.9% of the time by just turning in a circle the option of making a route that tricked the defense was removed. An example, Red Death in T1 playing Snow Blind where someone (Torment, pr0nigy maybe, I dunno) used a route that went out behind the base and then across the middle of the map. The emphasis was on the defense being able to stay close enough to the person with their flag, or else their chances of retrieving were greatly reduced. This was a case of two very good teams playing eachother and showcased T1's capacity to be creative.

A look at t2, now. We'll look at classic, since the speeds and gameplay will hopefully be more in kind with T:V than t2 base was. We will also ignore the team size difference, as it has little bearing on the result (other than the number of cg's aimed at the carrier). In nearly any level, and certainly at the top level, of t2 comp. capping was reduced to high speed grabs from the back 160 degrees (roughly). Because a light d could see the exact location of their flag just by looking for the indicator, it made intercepting a carrier infinitely easier than in T1. Say someone grabbed from the front of a flag stand: first of all, as soon as the defense hears the flag grab sound those with a laser rifle will switch to it while beginning to track their flag. Instead of being forced to choose their target, they look for the big flying flag and shoot at it, or move into a position to shoot. Let's say that is one or two of the LD, and they both miss. The rest will immediately track the flag icon and disk jump to intercept. The carrier's ability to out smart the ld with a creative route is removed, because the carrier can be tracked without being in visual range. So now the carrier is forced to accept the reality of the situation and look for the fastest way away from the defense, becasue the creative way has been removed. That said, all that is left is the high speed back cap, and that is one of the things that made t2 less fun for me. Anyway, that's my opinion, and I hope I backed it up enough for colossus to deem it valid :shrug:
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I see the uses of your system but playing T1/T2 for a while i'd definatly push for no flag finder. It lets cappers use alot more improv and the opposing team has to actually chase instead of intercept or snipe cross map.

*edit* I do like the rest of the sensor network features. I'm just really opposed to flag finder due to the above reasoning.
 
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This is a GOOD sensor system. I like this. It's markedly better than the T1 or T2 sensor systems. Just thinking about the ramifications makes me happy.
 
I like the one idea mentioned where instead of having fixed base sensors, the sensors are bought at a deployable station and deployed. The main this this accomplishes is to keep the defense from having to guard the sensor. If someone kills it, you don't repair, you just deploy another one. This also lets a map have multiple sensors (that don't stack), letting a team deploy a couple and not worrying about sensors till the enemy finds and kills ALL their sensors. Put the choice in the player's hands.

As for how they should work, I think the system where within a certain distance from a player on your team, enemy indicators are shown. Outside that distance, they get no IFF unless your sensors are up, and even then they get no IFF if they are outside a distance from your sensor. No flag finder if you have no sensors, but if you have sensors then you should get a flag finder in the range that you can see (aka the shorter enemy IFF range), but no flag finder in the large range, or outside it. This system is a tad more complex, but is a nice comprimise.
 
I seriously think this is a vastly improved sensor concept. The other sensor system was frankly, useful, but completely unused, and in dire need of being integrated more solidly into the gameplay.

This model, along with the radar HUD, makes sensors important enough that Joe Q. Newbie will get into the sensor play.
 
Absolutely no to the flag finder. It's not even so much about hiding, to me. It makes chasing soooo much easier, and I don't like that at all. I also don't want to be chasing down a huge flag icon, superimposed over a player. I didn't like T2's one bit, and I don't like this idea either.

As to the radar, I don't like the all-or-nothing approach either. So with this new thing, you can either see everyone all the time, or not see anyone at all(not counting teammates)?? Don't like it one bit. T1-style LOS was ahead of its time, and I don't see why it can't be considered here.

KP, you say that alot of players didn't really appreciate the old radar system, that it was immensely useful and only a few players got it enough to take advantage? Well, why is that a problem? I'd vastly prefer that over a system where no one even has to think about it.
 
I disagree. The sensor system was useful, but it wasn't useful enough or obvious enough to get most people to go out and actually use it. I saw a few teams use it in competition, but beyond that, the damn things just weren't touched by anyone in a pub.

I prefer this system because it will actually cause the vast majority of players to interact with a new game element. It will effectively complicate the game. I'm normally all for leaving esoteric mechanics to the elite, but this new system will simply make the sensor important enough to make the huddled masses use it.

The only thing I'm not sure I like is the flag finder.
 
To those who are commenting that the no-IFFs only for enemies when the sensor is down is 'redundant' since friendlies will always have green IFFs... you're forgetting about visibility. Tribes maps are really big -- I bet you don't realize how much you rely on the IFFs not just to identify a friend or foe, but to just spot a player on the map. Players not having IFFs won't immediately be identified as enemies because you probably won't encounter half of them in the first place since you can't find them on your HUD & radar.
 
Zoolooman said:
I disagree. The sensor system was useful, but it wasn't useful enough or obvious enough to get most people to go out and actually use it. I saw a few teams use it in competition, but beyond that, the damn things just weren't touched by anyone in a pub.
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The teams I saw that used them were all high on, or at least part of, comp ladders. I know that we used them quite a bit, although I won't claim that we were elite or anything.

And seriously, if we want to go by what the huddled masses want, they probably don't want to mess with radar period. I doubt that forcing them to use it will help.

Anyways, take my comments in stride. I can hardly be said to support the common gamer, who only wants to know where to shoot. :)
 
this definitely will make newbies aware of the sensor system, if not just b/c of the radar static. depending on useful the thing actually is. if ppl dont really use the radar, then losing the sensor doesn't mean much b/c no triangle means enemy.

i still think that no matter if the sensor is up or not, enemies within a reasonable distance from you should always have the triangle. it just makes sense. if i can shake their hand why cant i get an IFF?

flag finders are definitely a bad idea. i dont need to explain why. KP knows.
 
I'm not going for what the normal gamer wants. I'm going for forcing him to join in the information war that is a small part of Tribes gameplay. It would be so much nicer if pubbies actually paid attention to what was happening around them, using the information tools made available by the game. This system, as presented by KP, makes it impossible for them to ignore the sensor net.
 
Having a sensor that can see all enemies is way too powerful. LD will always know where cappers are, removing a lot of strategy from capping since there's no point in keeping out of view. The sensor should definitely have a limited range.

People use deployable sensors quite often, even in pubs, so I don't see why you think they are unused. I sometimes put a sensor near common routes so cappers are easier to spot. Usually the sensor doesn't stay up too long because people are smart enough to realize that there's a sensor and they need to destroy it. If people don't see the value in them, their team suffers for it, but that's the way it should be. It's a strategic part of Tribes that teams can choose to utilize if they feel it's necessary, but not using them doesn't totally take your team out of the game the way it does in your current system.

In a game of Tribes, there is sort of a balance of your team having the advantage or being at a disadvantage. Currently, you are most at a disadvantage if the other team has taken your base and has some heavies sitting in it. Your team can still play effectively naked, but is still at a pretty good disadvantage and under normal circumstances needs to spend time clearing enemies from the base. In T:V, this "balance" of advantage/disadvantage is way too extreme when your team can be "blind" in comparison to the enemy. Also, the new pack system makes packs much more important than in previous Tribes games, further exaggerating this "balance."



I posted some of this in another thread:
The flag icon makes tracking the flag a lot easier, giving stupid chasers a huge boost. If you can constantly see where the flag is, the capper has much less freedom to outwit chasers. He can't go over a hill and change direction or something. The worst part of it is that in T2 people often took potshots at the flag icon from long range with the laser rifle, getting cheap kills.

I'm fine with the last known location of the flag being displayed on the radar, but putting the icon right on screen will make chasing require no awareness. At least with the radar you have to look at the corner of the screen, and only get the approximate horizontal location of the flag. The flag icon puts the exact location in view at all times. This also makes picking the flag up in the field infinitely easier. If it's just the last known horizontal location, then grabbing the flag in the field will take more skill because the flag probably flew a small distance from where it was dropped so you don't know exactly where it is.

In comparison to T1, your current system gives the LD too easy of a time seeing incoming cappers, makes flag chasing require zero awareness, and makes picking the flag up in the field take no skill.
 
I won't discuss T1's sensor system because I'm foreign to it.
However, saying that the T2 sensor system was ignored I find is a mistake. It's mostly that it's generally useless. People practically always have an IFF on everything they see, and they can see pretty far in most maps. There was simply little needs for a sensor. Take a look at foggier maps like Quagmire. It's a fairly widespread strategy to have the LD quickly deploy sensors at the beginning to get an IFF on back cappers through the fog. Sensors' utility is recognized when they are useful.
Nobody bothers to repair the sensor by the flag in Feign because:
- it's simply unnecessary
- the sensor will be down within the next 10 seconds anyway
- you can ask your farmer to screw the turrets and place sensors in remote areas where cappers hang, but as soon as that capper knows he's seen (detection indicator), he'll take a quick look around and send a single disc on the sensor, making sensor deployment a fairly futile task, considering the farmer has to travel a long way to get it up.

This brings a question. When the enemy sensor is up, do you get some sort of detection warning like you do when you enter sensor range in T2?

As for friend/foe detection, aside from the fact that teammates have a permanent IFF and the models' differences, the trails must also be taken into account, which were said to allow enemy ID and basically can serve as a LOS IFF (regardless of whether they add smoke on top of 'em. There are tons of games with both trails and trailing smoke).


P.S. For those argumenting that Tribes is already too complex, give me a fudgeing break. Tribes is moderate at best. It's only the alternatives that are dumbed down to outrageous oversimplicity. It doesn't take a month to figure out Tribes. You won't convince a CS player to play anything more than point-and-shoot, so a little bit more or less complexity will have nothing to do with accessing that or similar player bases.
 
Zoolooman said:
This system, as presented by KP, makes it impossible for them to ignore the sensor net.
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The way I look at it, it also makes it impossible for the competitive gamer to get an edge by using little-used things to his advantage.

I also think that if they are within my LOS, and are within a certain distance of me, I should be able to tag them as friend-or-foe. Regardless of any central radar being down or up.
 
Well let me play Devils Advocate here;


I think your IFF HUD shouldn't show Red or Green triangles if it won't show you Red ones. Whether you show only 1 side, or Both sides its the same thing. It's redundent. If I detect a player, Sensor up or Sensor down, I know who's team that player belongs too. So does knocking out the sensor impact that aspect at all? Not really. The system is currently only a matter of if I detect the player at all and the IFF marker only plays a partial role in that. The system should be about "who I've detected", not "if I detect..."

I'll argue that in T1 we needed the IFF Triangles more for basic function then actual feature. In T1, both teams used the same model and just reskined it. This is an important consideration because it ment that without a skin, there's no way to distinguish between teams without an IFF marker. Due to the limitations of the engine, T1 scaled back texture resolutions quite aggressively, reducing objects to a skinless state very quickly and at relatively short ranges. Anyone who's tried playing in 3rd person knows that without IFF markers, the game is confusing at all ranges. It was therefore necessity to be generous with the IFF system in order for the system to work at all.

In T2, the same can be said. The engine is very aggressive at LoD controll and models become indistinguishable shapes lost in a soup of fog induced by poor LoS ranges.

Not all games use the IFF system, and yet have no problems even at longer ranges. Generally this is because the basic shape and color of the models use very distinct features that keep them identifiable when other "cues" are not availible or defined. T:V uses very distinct shapes between the different Tribes, placing very prodominent features on them to make them very distinct from each other. Add to that, they also follow a basic and distinct color theme, of dominent Blue, Red and Yellow. These are colors that contrast easily from each other and stand out without relying on the physical resolution of the model skin itself. You will not need to read the Lion's Insignia on the left shoulder of a Model to know that the Squarish Blue shape infront of you is an Imperial... and therefore not on your team.

We therefore come to Cognitive Senses and Awarness and how it effects your tactics, strategies and basic skills as a player on the field. When the system simply tells you what you see, it makes you a lazy player because you do not need to be as preceptive and on your toes as when it doesn't tell you anything at all. As mentioned before, it is one thing to detect something, it is another to know what it is you've detected. The idea of knocking out the Sensor is too make it harder for your enemy to detect and track you as thier enemy. If the system is operational, it'll do the work for you and tell you information about what you've detected. However, if the system is telling you who is "Green" all the time, then its telling you the IFF state of who isn't, regardless of it being up or down, all the time.

However, if the system truely tells you nothing (aside from the green dots in your radar) when its destroyed it will force players to make decisions of their own individual cognition. That cognition is also known as "Situational Awarness" and it is an important factor in determining the level of talent or skill inherent in a player. It's as vaild as Sharp Vision or Quickly Reflexes to MA someone or Chaingun them down. To Nerf this is to blunt an element that helps distinguish players as individuals in a game.

Is that a Friend or Foe? If the system will not tell a player automatically because the enemy destroyed it as apart of their strategy, then that player needs to discern what the evidence they do understand is telling them. The UFO is Squarish, It's Blue and It's headed inbound toward the backdoor of the Generator. The evidence suggests it is an Imperial and hostile... but there is no IFF marker to tell me if my observations are correct. Should I leave my post and investigate? Should I assume its a friendly and not risk leaving my post? Is it critical that I know either way? Will a wrong prediction cost my team the flag? These are questions that are constantly being asked of the player but usually the answer is dictated to them. You should go kill the enemy Imperial, he's attacking your generator. If the system will not automatically answer these questions for a player, then you are emphasizing and bringing out this aspect of strategy and tactics making the ability to successfully answer them (or conversely failing too) a strategic consideration that can be employed at critical times. To keep the Green IFF triangles online all the time, you effectively ignore this.

If the system is up, then it'll tell you, That is a Friend or That is a Foe. However, if it isn't then the answer to that question should be left up to your personal cognitive ability as a player to analyze the evidence, in whatever state its in, and make wise and logical decisions based on your levels of tactical skill and experience. If there is a sharp contrast in the Sensor being Operational from Destroyed, you change the stage from time to time and showcase a different kind of skill and make it more prominent when it becomes important to know the difference between those who can identify and predict their enemies, from those who can't.
 
Two concerns:

1) Having *all* the enemies show up on your radar seems too powerful. I'd think it would negate the D's need to be constantly scanning in all directions, trying to decide whether they can spare the 5 seconds to rearm at the inv.

2) Having just the one sensor in a known location makes it seem, like you said, like a generator. We're looking at small team sizes here, like 8-ish. Seems like people will be stretched a bit thin.
 
I think this is an excellent idea except for no red IFFs when the sensor is down. Red IFFs should still appear with a downed main sensor, but in a shorter range than if the sensor was up.

The main thing I love about this is the flag finder arguments. You've taken it out of the developers hands (partially anyways), and put it into the players hands. Don't want LD homing in on cappers with super accuracy? Make an effort to kill the sensor to give your cappers more freedom. Focusing on mostly back-front capping? Ignore the sensor and go after the flag/gens.

So anyways, allow red IFFs on visual contact closer up regardless of the sensor, and I'd say its a pretty good innovation overall.
 
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