[T:V] The sensor system

I had a lot of fun deploying sensors and adjusting sensor coverage depending on enemy cap routes to get a bit of extra heads up, in t2 classic when cappers are coming in fast, it was sometimes the only warning you could get as an LD, example:

OOB routes on Damn
Pand, sensors were gold dust.

I'll miss that.

However the all or nothing system is pretty much how pubs are played, but for competition I think good deployable sensor use was kinda cool.
 
ZProtoss said:
I disagree. Deployable sensors by their very nature would have to be easy to take out.
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Why? I don't see any reason why deployables need to all be easy to take out. That's entirely an issue of balance vs. their range, their effectiveness, and the maximum number of sensors you can deploy.

Outside of that, you just spoke of sensors in an offensive format. The benefit you get from using sensors offensively isn't nearly the benefit you get from deploying them defensively.
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Good point. But I was operating under the assumption that the main base sensor was still providing coverage for 75% of the map (or whatever amount makes sense). The deployable sensors are only used if you want to extend the sensor coverage.

On the defensive end with the new sensor idea, is taking defense away from more key flag/gen spots to defend against people going after the sensor going to be worth the potential vunerability you might open up? What if the team is attacking the sensor to make you move people so they can open up space for a capper? These are other strategic impacts of the one sensor format.
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Same choices exist with main sensor + deployable sensors.

So anyways, I feel the potential strategic value of the one sensor setup is in theory far more deep than the mini sensor setup that T1/T2 had.
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Yes, but only because taking out the sensor net has more of an effect now. This is true whether the sensor net consists of a single main sensor, or comprises a main sensor with smaller deployables.

A single sensor that covers the whole map is definitely simpler, though. I just wonder if it's an oversimplification.
 
Mr_Unlucky said:
If the single player missions can't teach someone what a sensor NET is, I seriously doubt they have the attention span for tribes in the first place.
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As I've said before, the single player will train people to move, fight, etc... It's not supposed to, nor is there a hope that it could, train people on strategy. It's a story based thing, not a bunch of MP missions with bots. Assume that players coming into MP from SP will know how to fly & ski, use inventory stations, and know what some of the game types are. We're not terribly interested in trying to cram every subtlety of MP into the SP game.
 
Nagorak said:
These sensor changes are just absolute crap. There was nothing wrong with the way things worked in T2. It's been so long since I played T1, I can't rememeber exactly how sensors worked there, but I don't recall it being much different than T2.

What I want to know in regards to these sensor changes and lot of other changes you guys are making, is WHY you are doing it?
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I want to know why you think we need to justify anything that is different from T1 or T2. Check my sig.
 
Hmm, how is it that all player positions would show up on radar anyway? I thought that info beyond the fog line wasn't being sent to the client to help combat cheating.
 
pyrot3chnic said:
new stategies?
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New Strategy employed by Irrational:

2 Mediums with Bucklers & speed packs charge base, knock heavy off flag and kill with bucklers. Move into base to start destruction. Capper flies over flag stand from behind using energy pack boost, grapples flag off stand and hits middle hill to ski home within 8 seconds.

Now, the grappling flag off stand will change, but the strategy is sound.
 
This discussion is quite frustrating to me. I've played T1, T2, and T:V. The current system works quite well. That's not to say it's perfect, but the sensor is nice to have up, and not a disaster to have down. It's advantageous to take out the enemy sensor, but not vital. I've seen the system in action, and it's good.

I appreciate the people who have given thoughtful suggestions. Many of them have been quite good, and I'm sure that the design team are thinking about all of those suggestions.

To the people who are simply bitching because it's not the way T1 or T2 did it, you'll get over it. I just don't care if it's the same. It's so completely unimportant for things like this to be the same that I can't find adequate words to describe how little I care. If you have a valid point other than "it worked just fine in my comfortable old world" then bring it, but the game is different, is going to continue to be different, and frankly the more you bitch about that the less I care about anything else you say.

Try to bring rational and progressive discourse, not histrionic conservatism.

Thanks.
 
Thrax Panda said:
As I've said before, the single player will train people to move, fight, etc... It's not supposed to, nor is there a hope that it could, train people on strategy. It's a story based thing, not a bunch of MP missions with bots. Assume that players coming into MP from SP will know how to fly & ski, use inventory stations, and know what some of the game types are. We're not terribly interested in trying to cram every subtlety of MP into the SP game.
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I would hope that someone who has completed the SP before hopping online would know what the items do. How difficult would it be to throw the following objective into 1 mission?

"We've lost sensor data from our remote listening post, before we attack the enemy stronghold we'll need you to deploy a sensor (or sensors) in the vicinity of the base. Practice the skiing method you were introduced to last mission and keep your head down."

or

"We know the enemy is preparing to attack, but their base is outside the range of our main sensor. Without sensor information the enemy will have the element of surprise. Place a deployable sensor on the ridge overlooking the canyon and return to base for further instructions."

There hasn't been much information on single playerm missions, but something like the above seems simple and straightforward to me. I expect at least some of the missions to be "kill x target", "defend this and survive this long", or "rendez vous at the given coordinates" with the story unfolding in the midst of all that. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to throw in some use of deployables.
 
-iA- Sass said:
How difficult would it be to throw the following objective into 1 mission?
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The single player has been all planned out for some time. They want to ship a less buggy game than T2 was, which means they have to stay disciplined regarding incorporating changes late in the project. They've no doubt planned for some balance changes to multiplayer to come out of testing. But adding new objectives to single player missions is likely not something they have room for in the schedule.
 
Colosus said:
New Strategy employed by Irrational:

2 Mediums with Bucklers & speed packs charge base, knock heavy off flag and kill with bucklers. Move into base to start destruction. Capper flies over flag stand from behind using energy pack boost, grapples flag off stand and hits middle hill to ski home within 8 seconds.

Now, the grappling flag off stand will change, but the strategy is sound.
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Just change "off the stand" into "out of the field, after a medium throws it out of the stand area..."

HoF and LD are going to REALLY have to be on the ball.
 
I don't have time to read the whole thread (at work), so apologies if this has already been stated.

I think the sensor system you guys have in place is pretty nice. Makes sensors more important, and makes it easy to understand. I don't think newbs will have too big of a problem...worst case, they don't know why the IFFs are gone, they ask, they get an answer, now they know.

I don't think deployable sensors will really bring anything other than a complication. Adding deployable sensors will require a change in the single-sensor idea, it'd probably have to follow the T2-style sensor system so that it's not too complicated for a newb.

As far as the flag IFF/waypoint goes, I like the idea of having it by default you get a waypoint for the flag, kinda like a homing beacon. Then, if the sensor's up, you also get the IFF (I'm assuming this is what you're [KP] talking about) if you have LOS to the flag carrier/stand.

So, assuming I'm a capper going for the flag, if my sensor is up, I know exactly where the flag is (IFF + waypoint), I just go for it. If the sensor's down, I know the position of the flag on the CC (waypoint), but there's nothing in my LOS to show me where it is. Not detrimental to capping, but it does make it a tad more difficult.

Now, if I'm going after the enemy capper who has our flag, and my sensor is up, I know where they're at (waypoint), and which enemy has the flag (IFF). If the sensor's down, I know where they're at (waypoint), but not which enemy has the flag...so if there's a group of enemies sitting around where the flag is, I gotta pay a little more attention.
 
VaporTrail said:
Just change "off the stand" into "out of the field, after a medium throws it out of the stand area..."

HoF and LD are going to REALLY have to be on the ball.
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Yeah, that's the way it is in the current build. No grappling the flag off its stand, but you can grapple it in the field,
KP
 
Guessing that the grapple has a fairly long range, and flat out grappling the flag to you from a long range would in theory seem pretty abusive. Any chance to where it'd change from directly grappling into you, to grappling the flag giving it a nudge towards you, but not actually bringing it to you?

It'd actually be an interesting concept to test out. Say it had an impact on the flag slightly more than the T2 disk. Also say that only offense would be able to grapple the flag. (To prevent the problem of defense grappling it into the side of a building or some other really difficult spot to pick it up). This gives midfield pickups more power, but counterable power with a choice.

Do you...

A.) Try grappling the flag to throw it towards you in a more favorable position for a pickup.

B.) Throw nades or discs at any D that might be close as to make it so that you're less likely to be killed after picking it up.

A.) has another downside as well. If the defense sees you coming in for a pickup on an open flag, they could always just cut down your angle and make it impossible for you to get a grapple shot on the flag.

Just some interesting gameplay effects when you think about it.

KineticPoet said:
Yeah, that's the way it is in the current build. No grappling the flag off its stand, but you can grapple it in the field,
KP
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Ok, and in T1 we have the lovely tactic of having the Defence camp a feilded flag because they can, if they keep sharp, simply touch it and teleport it home should any threat challenge it on the field. For the most part, there isn't really a reason, IMO, not to keep a flag in the field for as long as possible. With a flag that can be grappled, the Defence now must make a tacitcal decision, is the flag safer at home locked into the flag stand or can we risk it left in the field for the traditional reasons we leave it in the field.

I do not, entirely, see why adding this option is a foregone conclusion to being a negitive thing.

I would assume that the grappler is somewhat vulnerable while he reals in the flag. Why not fire discs in the direction of the grappler? Getting him to evade incoming fire could easily "break" the attempt. I'm guessing he's limited in the types of manuvuering he can do without risking the cable breaking in midair until the flag is secured in his hands.
 
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jsut said:
it's not perm though is it? it's only on when the sensor is up. If you think it's a huge advantage then keep their sensor down.
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Well, I'm pretty sure KP said it was always up, the flag finder.
 
I hope they decide to go with the radar arrow idea. Flag iffs are a big :ugh: imo, sensor dependant or not. It just doesn't promote fun and exciting flag play. Disc jump toward the icon and CG away... not to mention the cross-map snipes.

Buw w/e, if this is another reach-out to the newb crowd, I guess it's here to stay.
 
Ugh can the D grapple their own flag? That terrifies me.

Well let me rephrase if they can grapple it and move it and then let it go before returning it, that would terrify me. No one would ever have a flag pickup again :eek:
 
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