I hadn't really thought about the flag finder thing, but (without much serious thought about it's real effects) I think I agree with you, that a directional indicator on the radar would be good.Father Ruckus said:
[T:V] The sensor system
- Thread starter KineticPoet
- Start date
I really hope you're not trying to make T:V like Tribes 1. In T2 the CC plainly showed the enemy assets and a simple right click gave you the option of assigning a task to attack it, giving you a nice waypoint. It is a lot less frustrating than trying to find a flag on the back of a player when you have no idea where he is, and everyone on his team is trying to keep you from him.KineticPoet said:
I can understand the complaint T1 players have over T2's flag icon and the ability to snipe a carrier across the map that you can't even see. So far I wholeheartedly endorse the circular direction indicator, but I DO NOT want to see its operation tied to sensor status.
How about a comprimise? Just figure the flag is "bugged" so both teams always know where they may be located via the circular indicator. Kind of like LoJack.
The main sensor is actually a satellite uplink. The uplink handles communications between players and the sensor network. When it is down, radar will only display players in LOS and NOTHING is displayed on the CC. Friend/Foe indicators won't be visible or shown to teammates unless the targets are in deployable sensor radius, and without the uplink chasers won't show a friendly indicator unless teammates are in line of sight.
The NavHud won't have a visible indicator for the flag UNLESS the carrier is close enough to the player to display the name/health indicator. If you can't SEE the carrier, you won't know who has the flag. An icon wouldn't even be needed if particle effects or a T2 glow was used.
That way you wouldn't have any sniping across the map and you wouldn't know exactly where the flag was, just what direction it is in.
PLEASE, whatever you use, DON'T make the flag indicator sensor dependent. It takes attention away from the objective (the FLAG) and places it on static assets, encouraging raping over capping. It just means yet ANOTHER thing that has to be defended by a bored player in a match, or constantly repaired (or ignored) by some poor unfortunate bastard on a pub.
Satan- said:
I agree that route setup in T2 was a bit lacking. But, I think this had a lot to do with the physics and map layouts. You really couldn't get enough consistent speed on most maps to really do a really good side-to-side or front-to-back route and not go out-of-bounds. The flag finder just cut out any potential 'slack' time that you had while trying to setup a useful route after making a medicore grab.
I think a 'flag direction' indicator would help here as well. Maps also need to be designed with standoffs and turtles in mind; it seems many T1/T2 map designers really never considerd this issue when designing maps. There are other ways of addressing standoffs as well (auto-return timers), and I hope the T:V guys have enough time to put something into place.
This 'feature' could also have been limited by reducing the sniper rifle's range. There was no reason to let the rifle shoot 1000m; almost no map ever had visibility farther than 500m anyway. Even a 400m range would have been sufficient for the vast majority of all sniping situations.
I agree with your first sentence (plus a flag direction indicator would help with this). BUT, one major point I have to stress: T:V has to be designed around the pub experience and with no expectations of external programs running. You can't rely on external mods, scripts, or voice chat programs to make the game fun/interesting in a pub. If Joe Pub Newbie can't figure out how the hell to play the flag game effectively using the in-game tools, then there's a good chance he won't play CTF for long or give a damn about CTF matches.
adamant_2001
Veteran X
On the topic of deployables, on the whole hunting down deployed pulse sensors not being fun here's a few ideas to make it less tedious if they were added to the game:
*If T1/2 style, since sensors have a line of sight, and a limited radius, you know that if your sensor warning light is on, the sensor is most likely in direct visual range of your position.
*Relatively large sensor model, with a pulse sound. That way it's easy to visually locate as well as to hear. To counteract the ease of finding them they should be durable.
*A deployables limit so that at most you'd have 2-4 deployed on a map.
*Deployables are linked to the main base sensor/generator, when the main sensor is down so is the detection from the deployables.
The end result would be you have your main base sensor that covers the main flag route(s) and your base for a relatively large distance. Then deployables would give sensor coverage for secondary routes. Each deployable would be a large target, yet durable and important enough that it'd make sense to have some protection for them.
Since deployables aren't a pack anymore, more players would be willing to use sensors, especially if the flag position marker is tied to the sensor net. It'd make sense to cover as many flag routes as possible with sensor coverage if you want to know where the enemy is taking the flag.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I like the T1 system. Some simplification is needed as motion sensors and their nuances are a bit too much depth. However, the ability to use terrain to hide and also to improve the detection and turrets when under automatic control being tied to the sensor net I think are good things.
Actually, that surprises me the most. I didn't hear anything about un-manned turrets not firing when sensors were down in the post about the new sensor system. That'd really make sensors important. (IFF, flag finding, turrets)
*If T1/2 style, since sensors have a line of sight, and a limited radius, you know that if your sensor warning light is on, the sensor is most likely in direct visual range of your position.
*Relatively large sensor model, with a pulse sound. That way it's easy to visually locate as well as to hear. To counteract the ease of finding them they should be durable.
*A deployables limit so that at most you'd have 2-4 deployed on a map.
*Deployables are linked to the main base sensor/generator, when the main sensor is down so is the detection from the deployables.
The end result would be you have your main base sensor that covers the main flag route(s) and your base for a relatively large distance. Then deployables would give sensor coverage for secondary routes. Each deployable would be a large target, yet durable and important enough that it'd make sense to have some protection for them.
Since deployables aren't a pack anymore, more players would be willing to use sensors, especially if the flag position marker is tied to the sensor net. It'd make sense to cover as many flag routes as possible with sensor coverage if you want to know where the enemy is taking the flag.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I like the T1 system. Some simplification is needed as motion sensors and their nuances are a bit too much depth. However, the ability to use terrain to hide and also to improve the detection and turrets when under automatic control being tied to the sensor net I think are good things.
Actually, that surprises me the most. I didn't hear anything about un-manned turrets not firing when sensors were down in the post about the new sensor system. That'd really make sensors important. (IFF, flag finding, turrets)
pyrot3chnic
Veteran XX
I don't feel like writing a long winded post since it's been said over and over.. so I'll just sign my name to this ide
No flag IFF; yes to an icon on the rim of the radar.
As for the new sensor system, I'm willing to go on some faith.. I've never been against no IFFs for the enemies, so having it sensor dependant seems like a good balance to me.
No flag IFF; yes to an icon on the rim of the radar.
As for the new sensor system, I'm willing to go on some faith.. I've never been against no IFFs for the enemies, so having it sensor dependant seems like a good balance to me.
pyrot3chnic
Veteran XX
MadeInCanada
Veteran XX
Hi KP.KineticPoet
Veteran X
I just want to remind people that T1's waypoint worked precisely this way. And T1 probably stole it from somewhere else.Thrax Panda said:
Furthermore, this has been working in T:V for a couple months now. It's just an enhanced implementation. Instead of it being a little arrow at the edge of a small circle, it's a flag icon at the edge of a larger radar,
KP
pyrot3chnic
Veteran XX
That's good to hear, but what are the flag iffs for? Are the other irrational guys having a hard time keeping track of the flag, or are you just trying to piss some of us off? 
KineticPoet said:
If the Generator represents a teams "Power and Resources", then the Sensor represents "Command and Control". The Sensor Dish/Tower is like the Electronic Warfare Aircraft which fly near the hot zones in the real world. All they do is relay all the information and communication between different assests in the sky and on the ground so everyone can benifit from what each other sees. What if in T:V, you can show a Red IFF Marker to a player, but that Red IFF marker will not be communicated to the rest of the team if the Sensor is destroyed. The idea is that without the sensor, you only see what you see, not what anyone else is seeing. Add in a shortened LoS range without the sensor to highlight the advantages of an operational sensor and perhaps we have a trade off between not having IFF's at all when the sensor is down, but still having a solid means of keeping the loyalties of each player straight.
Personally, I still still favor not having IFF's of any kind, green or red, if the sensor is destoryed. However, I like the way you've set up the system so far.
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These sensor changes are just absolute crap. There was nothing wrong with the way things worked in T2. It's been so long since I played T1, I can't rememeber exactly how sensors worked there, but I don't recall it being much different than T2.
What I want to know in regards to these sensor changes and lot of other changes you guys are making, is WHY you are doing it?
There was nothing wrong with sensors in T2. T2 had problems, even a lot of problems, but the sensor system was not one of them. As far as I can tell you're changing stuff just for the hell of it that does not need to be changed.
Deployable sensors added to strategy. You could place them and more easily see cappers coming in. The stupid IFF thing over someone's head was the least important part, it was them showing up on the damn command map. When you're playing defense whether light or heavy on flag, whatever, knowing what direction someone is coming from is a major asset. It makes deploying sensors worth it. It makes the game more fun...
Instead it sounds like what we're going to get is defense that just sucks to play. Instead of finding strategic places to deploy your sensors (which hopefully will last a little while), we're just going to have people forced to play repair jerk on the main sensor.
Meanwhile we'll either always know where people are coming from (overpowered) or we'll never know (if the sensor is down).
So the HoF is just going to sit there on the flag like a dumbass doing nothing, surrounded by a bunch of cheesy repair turrets (no need to ask your farmer for a repair anymore) and a shield pack that seems to require no skill in terms of energy management.
People talked about defense being overpowered in T2 and yet now we get repair turrets and repair packs repair everything in a radius? Honestly, wtf?
Just because you and most of the dev team may enjoy just playing a game with a bunch of cowboy capping, and no strategy in terms of deployment, doesn't mean that's what everyone else wants.
These things were fine in T1 and T2! Why change what already works? Because, honestly, the changes you guys are making are just pure crap.
I really enjoyed playing T1 and even T2, but I'm not sure I'm even going to waste my time on T:V, the way things are going.
What I want to know in regards to these sensor changes and lot of other changes you guys are making, is WHY you are doing it?
There was nothing wrong with sensors in T2. T2 had problems, even a lot of problems, but the sensor system was not one of them. As far as I can tell you're changing stuff just for the hell of it that does not need to be changed.
Deployable sensors added to strategy. You could place them and more easily see cappers coming in. The stupid IFF thing over someone's head was the least important part, it was them showing up on the damn command map. When you're playing defense whether light or heavy on flag, whatever, knowing what direction someone is coming from is a major asset. It makes deploying sensors worth it. It makes the game more fun...
Instead it sounds like what we're going to get is defense that just sucks to play. Instead of finding strategic places to deploy your sensors (which hopefully will last a little while), we're just going to have people forced to play repair jerk on the main sensor.
Meanwhile we'll either always know where people are coming from (overpowered) or we'll never know (if the sensor is down).
So the HoF is just going to sit there on the flag like a dumbass doing nothing, surrounded by a bunch of cheesy repair turrets (no need to ask your farmer for a repair anymore) and a shield pack that seems to require no skill in terms of energy management.
People talked about defense being overpowered in T2 and yet now we get repair turrets and repair packs repair everything in a radius? Honestly, wtf?
Just because you and most of the dev team may enjoy just playing a game with a bunch of cowboy capping, and no strategy in terms of deployment, doesn't mean that's what everyone else wants.
These things were fine in T1 and T2! Why change what already works? Because, honestly, the changes you guys are making are just pure crap.
I really enjoyed playing T1 and even T2, but I'm not sure I'm even going to waste my time on T:V, the way things are going.
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Exit Wound
Veteran X
ZProtoss said:
This is a good suggestion, although I don't know about 20!!! mortars. However the weapons in T:V will be different so maybe 20 is not so bad. Either way though I really like the new sensor idea!!! I like that there will be no iff's when sensors are down also. It will be no problem to distinguish friend from foe because theres always the green indicator. But when the sensors are down there it will be nice to have a little less chance of being seen at distance and caters to varying game play styles. If you have LOS of Iff's then everything you see with have a red marker again, and this diminishes the reason for taking out the sensors IMHO. The suggestion to limit the LOS iff's distance based on the sensor being down could be the best route and how I would like to see LOS Iff's implimented.
Will we be able to get a bunch of us wrapping the grapple hook cable around the sensor to boost its signal? Or wrapping it up to provide it alittle more durability?
KP Sensor Idea = WIN!!
:blueblob: :hitit2:
:blueblob::blueblob:
:blueblob: :drummer: 
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These changes along the flag IFF changes made going from T1 to T2 only dumb the game down more again taking away a skill that not everyone has had.
KP of all people should know that this takes skills away from people like Nat and Special in reguards to flag awareness and just hands that skill to every newbie that steps into a server. If you are intent on using a flag IFF give it a very short range. If you want to add it to the compass do the same. Honestly I would be happy with T1's flag where the only indication you have is the flag itself and the light effect it has on the ground and surrounding terrain. Thats one thing I pride myself on, being able to find the flag in the open field and get the return. That and knowing return routes to the point I can catch a capper that has a huge head start.
Sensors, and even more important deployables. I don't know about other people but sensors are one of the most important components to any good defense. They let you know about incomming units and if properly placed they can warn you of cappers and clearers setting up well in advance so its easier to stop them. I can honestly say my teams have spent just as much time working on sensor placement on maps like IR and RD just as much as our flag clearing and HO spacing. This is another dimension that appears you guys are removing from the game only serving to dumb things down. I just don't understand your need to take another dimension away from the game.
I liked T'2 sensor setup for the most part. I did think it could have used alittle bit larger range but it was good. With that being said I liked T1's even more. It was skill based thru and thru and required awareness beyond that of any other game. I think this is part of the reason top notch Tribes players can enter other FPS games and dominate. T1 and T2 pushed players further then they have ever been pushed and this is why they excel at all they do. Dumbing the game down not only blurs the lines between talent and a newbie that can only read this IFF's on the screen but it also puts us on the same level as the rest of the FPS world.
I don't know about you guys but I have always been proud of Tribes players moving on to other games and doing well.
KP of all people should know that this takes skills away from people like Nat and Special in reguards to flag awareness and just hands that skill to every newbie that steps into a server. If you are intent on using a flag IFF give it a very short range. If you want to add it to the compass do the same. Honestly I would be happy with T1's flag where the only indication you have is the flag itself and the light effect it has on the ground and surrounding terrain. Thats one thing I pride myself on, being able to find the flag in the open field and get the return. That and knowing return routes to the point I can catch a capper that has a huge head start.
Sensors, and even more important deployables. I don't know about other people but sensors are one of the most important components to any good defense. They let you know about incomming units and if properly placed they can warn you of cappers and clearers setting up well in advance so its easier to stop them. I can honestly say my teams have spent just as much time working on sensor placement on maps like IR and RD just as much as our flag clearing and HO spacing. This is another dimension that appears you guys are removing from the game only serving to dumb things down. I just don't understand your need to take another dimension away from the game.
I liked T'2 sensor setup for the most part. I did think it could have used alittle bit larger range but it was good. With that being said I liked T1's even more. It was skill based thru and thru and required awareness beyond that of any other game. I think this is part of the reason top notch Tribes players can enter other FPS games and dominate. T1 and T2 pushed players further then they have ever been pushed and this is why they excel at all they do. Dumbing the game down not only blurs the lines between talent and a newbie that can only read this IFF's on the screen but it also puts us on the same level as the rest of the FPS world.
I don't know about you guys but I have always been proud of Tribes players moving on to other games and doing well.
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Nagorak said:
This is silly. Defense wasn't overpowered in T2 because it was too durable, rather because it was far too automated.
Nagorak said:
Hey, look, I fixed it for you. You should stop being such a cowboy with this whole 'I' spiel. Think of the team, you capitalistic oppressor! You don't want to be a cowboy, do you?
Wulfen said:
The way the T:V system is, it'll be more so then the deployed sensor networks of T1/T2.
Once repaired, the radar goes up and suddenly you can see everything again.. Same "satisfaction" you get after the lights come back on when you finish repairing your destroyed gens.
so if your gen or sensor go down, all your deployable firing turrets become useless? Turrets in t1 and t2 worked with sensors. Also, it seems that having 2 objectives as important as the gen and the new sensor would take away from flag play and move more to baserape frenzy....