Thrax speaks in VUGames T:V forum
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I would really like to see 4 for the heavy.
However, I understand and like the idea behind using 3 weapons across all armors. This definately would narrow roles, creating more, but requiring loadout change to change to specific roles.
This was always the case in the past, but honestly, I could do just about everything with 2 or 3 fav's, minus deployting. LD and Capper were pretty similar. HO and HD also similar, maybe only change nades/packs for those. As far as weapons, it was the same between them mostly.
3 weapons, would definately create a more specialized approach to what players will do/can do. This could end up being a good or bad thing. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Probably won't be a significant enough change to drastically change the landscape of Tribes combat.
However, I understand and like the idea behind using 3 weapons across all armors. This definately would narrow roles, creating more, but requiring loadout change to change to specific roles.
This was always the case in the past, but honestly, I could do just about everything with 2 or 3 fav's, minus deployting. LD and Capper were pretty similar. HO and HD also similar, maybe only change nades/packs for those. As far as weapons, it was the same between them mostly.
3 weapons, would definately create a more specialized approach to what players will do/can do. This could end up being a good or bad thing. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Probably won't be a significant enough change to drastically change the landscape of Tribes combat.
KillerONE said:Probably won't be a significant enough change to drastically change the landscape of Tribes combat.
If that's the case then why are they bothering to change it at all? Just leave it as is and balance the game instead of worrying about stuff like this.
I get concerned when I read things like this. : \
KillerONE - You need to put some critical thought into this.
3 - 4 - 5 WILL WORK.
If we're going to change the model, then the change needs to be carefully considered for benefit before it is selected.
If we ashume that the given weapons for each armor are as follows:
Light: Disc Launcher.
Medium: Disc Launcher.
Heavy: Disc Launcher and Mortar.
Then 3 - 3 - 4 is the best model because it gives 2 spare weapon slots to the player no matter what armor clazz he takes.
If the yet unannounced medium only weapon is so good that it becomes a given, then the weapon slot model should be 3 - 4 - 4.
Read my posts on page 2 or 3 (one with the large yellow text) to understand why we need two optional weapon slots outside of the "given weapons".
3 - 4 - 5 WILL WORK.
If we're going to change the model, then the change needs to be carefully considered for benefit before it is selected.
If we ashume that the given weapons for each armor are as follows:
Light: Disc Launcher.
Medium: Disc Launcher.
Heavy: Disc Launcher and Mortar.
Then 3 - 3 - 4 is the best model because it gives 2 spare weapon slots to the player no matter what armor clazz he takes.
If the yet unannounced medium only weapon is so good that it becomes a given, then the weapon slot model should be 3 - 4 - 4.
Read my posts on page 2 or 3 (one with the large yellow text) to understand why we need two optional weapon slots outside of the "given weapons".
Fraggy Poo
Veteran X
3-3-4 is what they should use
And don't worry about the "medium just won't be used" bs, you spawn in medium and they are revamping the medium so it will probably be the armor of choice for general gameplay.
But having 3 weapon slots for the light gives the light some more versatility and a little bit of the spotlight the new medium will garner. Also, 4 for the heavy should be more than adequate because the heavy SHOULD be a tank, and a versatile machine of fatty love.
And don't worry about the "medium just won't be used" bs, you spawn in medium and they are revamping the medium so it will probably be the armor of choice for general gameplay.
But having 3 weapon slots for the light gives the light some more versatility and a little bit of the spotlight the new medium will garner. Also, 4 for the heavy should be more than adequate because the heavy SHOULD be a tank, and a versatile machine of fatty love.
KineticPoet
Veteran X
I recommend someone (Zoolooman?) reviews the maths in the following thread and applies them to what you now know about T:V. This could help expand the discussion a bit more:
http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5199746#5199746
In case that thread doesn't make it clear, we do think very hard about issues like this before we make decisions. But at some point you have to stop thinking and start playing, which of course you can't do yet,
KP
http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5199746#5199746
In case that thread doesn't make it clear, we do think very hard about issues like this before we make decisions. But at some point you have to stop thinking and start playing, which of course you can't do yet,
KP
I disagree with 3-3-4. I definitely think 2-3-4 is a good system, probably better than 3-4-5 was.
4 weapons seems appropriate for a heavy.
But as for the rest of your logic Zoolooman, it seems to me that you are basing it on the idea that a light in T:V will have the same roles as a light now. Which, as far as I can tell, will not be the case.
If the medium is too be the most used armor, it needs to have something that the light doesn't have. To me that says the extra weapon. I mean, if the light and the medium get the same number of slots, I can't see a reason to use the medium at all. I would go for speed over armor any day. This just has to be a balanced sacrifice.
If two weapons isn't enough for a duel or to properly defend, then people shouldn't be using the light to duel or defend. They should be using the medium. This won't make the light useless, it just means it will be a bit more of a niche. Only cappers and some chasers will be using it.
Another suggestion that won't fix the problem (Actually it might make it worse) would be to have the weapons affect your weight and therefore speed. It adds a little more reason to carry (or not carry) certain weapons in your loadout. If that was the case, we could just stick with 3-4-5 and people would modify their loadouts themselves.
4 weapons seems appropriate for a heavy.
But as for the rest of your logic Zoolooman, it seems to me that you are basing it on the idea that a light in T:V will have the same roles as a light now. Which, as far as I can tell, will not be the case.
If the medium is too be the most used armor, it needs to have something that the light doesn't have. To me that says the extra weapon. I mean, if the light and the medium get the same number of slots, I can't see a reason to use the medium at all. I would go for speed over armor any day. This just has to be a balanced sacrifice.
If two weapons isn't enough for a duel or to properly defend, then people shouldn't be using the light to duel or defend. They should be using the medium. This won't make the light useless, it just means it will be a bit more of a niche. Only cappers and some chasers will be using it.
Another suggestion that won't fix the problem (Actually it might make it worse) would be to have the weapons affect your weight and therefore speed. It adds a little more reason to carry (or not carry) certain weapons in your loadout. If that was the case, we could just stick with 3-4-5 and people would modify their loadouts themselves.
Slayer_Allen said:
If you're concerned about lights having the same loadout as medium, then just go with 3-4-4.
As to your saying that lights won't be used the same, how on earth do you know? You have some insight that no one else here does? And if it doesn't have mostly the same roles, well, I can't imagine any greater turn-off to Tribes vets.
If the light only has two weapon slots I won't play at all. I greatly prefer the current standard that Tribes has used pretty successively as-is, and don't understand why this is even an issue we're talking about.
Keep the damn thing as it's been and worry about the rest of the game. Let's not talk ourselves into Dave G-type changes here.
KineticPoet
Veteran X
Saying things like this doesn't help your point at all. I wouldn't even reply to you except that I feel I know you and I guess I hoped you'd be a bit more thoughtful.Wulfen said:
We don't make decisions without thinking about them, and it's silly to treat a decision like this as being cast in stone anyway, especially when you haven't played it to see what it's actually like:
Also, it seems like some people are forgetting that you currently spawn in medium armor by default,Wulfen said:
KP
skip my crappy post and go straight to zooloo's post at the end of this page
as.suming there are 10 weapons (blaster,burner,disc,gren launcher, mortar launcher, rocket launcher, chaingun, laser rifle, unknown 1, unknown 2), the combintoral stuff is:
10c1 = 10
10c2 = 45
10c3 = 120
10c4 = 210
10c5 = 252
10c6 = 210
10c7 = 120
10c8 = 45
10c9 = 10
10c10 = 1
from the link above:
In that case, you get 3 weapon slots...is this how you came up with the 3 idea?
I'd still like to see the heavy have at least 4 weapons. It's supposed to be the most powerful armor, so it should be able to carry more weapons than the other armors imo.
edit: forgot the laser rifle
edit2: this post is kind of a moot point since each armor can has a specialty weapon. Each armor can actually only carry 7 different weapons.
edit3: with each armor being able to carry 8 different weapons, the numbers change to
edit4: it's actually 8 weapons, I should stop trying to pretend I'm smart. This taking a minute to reload TW is getting gay.
1: 8c1 = 8
2: 8c2 = 28
3: 8c3 = 56
4: 8c4 = 70
5: 8c5 = 56
6: 8c6 = 28
7: 8c7 = 8
8: 8c8 = 1
4 slots would give you too much diversity, and 3 would give you just enough, now I'm done
ok enough math for me
as.suming there are 10 weapons (blaster,burner,disc,gren launcher, mortar launcher, rocket launcher, chaingun, laser rifle, unknown 1, unknown 2), the combintoral stuff is:
10c1 = 10
10c2 = 45
10c3 = 120
10c4 = 210
10c5 = 252
10c6 = 210
10c7 = 120
10c8 = 45
10c9 = 10
10c10 = 1
from the link above:
KineticPoet said:
In that case, you get 3 weapon slots...is this how you came up with the 3 idea?
I'd still like to see the heavy have at least 4 weapons. It's supposed to be the most powerful armor, so it should be able to carry more weapons than the other armors imo.
edit: forgot the laser rifle
edit2: this post is kind of a moot point since each armor can has a specialty weapon. Each armor can actually only carry 7 different weapons.
edit3: with each armor being able to carry 8 different weapons, the numbers change to
edit4: it's actually 8 weapons, I should stop trying to pretend I'm smart. This taking a minute to reload TW is getting gay.
1: 8c1 = 8
2: 8c2 = 28
3: 8c3 = 56
4: 8c4 = 70
5: 8c5 = 56
6: 8c6 = 28
7: 8c7 = 8
8: 8c8 = 1
4 slots would give you too much diversity, and 3 would give you just enough, now I'm done
ok enough math for me
Last edited:
Slayer_Allen said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Is this a strawman attack? How did you convince yourself my logical arguments had anything to do with the buttumption that T:V lights would have the same roles as T1 and T2 lights?
You are incorrectly interpreting my data, and definately misreading my arguments. Roles have nothing to do with the weapon slot count. I specifically noted it had to do with Tribes combat in general. 2 weapons was simply too few for a full Tribes player. It was a cripplingly low number.
And it had nothing to do with historic roles. Read my posts again. Especially the reply to exogen where I expanded on 2 weapon lights with detail.
Critical thinking??? 
It's hard to be as thorough as Zoolooman and some of the others.. I typically spout off top- of- the- head comments and move on!
3 is good for narrowing the roles. This can allow a more diverse set of functions that each player can make. And by more, I mean, specific loadouts. The amount of roles in a single loadout will be limited, but the amount of roles will be more distributed over specific loadouts, if that makes sense.
Let's say now, with 5 weapons as a heavy, you can perform 8 different roles with a single loadout. With only 3 weapons, you can perform only 2 roles. But you can perform the other 6 roles with 2 additional loadouts. So 3 loadouts (favorites) can perform 8 different roles with 3 weapons and 1 loadout can perform 8 different roles with 5 weapons.
The numbers might not be right on, but the give you an idea behind my thinking.
I hate to limit what the heavy can do, but almost always changing roles requires a pack change anyway, weapons are usually a secondary configuration when choosing a role.
As I said before, I dont' think it'll change things "that" much, but it will make people constuct their favorites a little more meticulously than before.
My T2 has about 10 loadouts I use, 3 of which I use most.. LD/LO (Energy, Disc/Chain/Nade), Farmer(Repair, Plasma, Disk, Chain, Missle) and HD/HO (Energy, Plasma, Disk, Chain, Missle, Mortar). I use hot keys to change packs/deployables.
Light and Medium won't be affected by the change much, imo.
It's hard to be as thorough as Zoolooman and some of the others.. I typically spout off top- of- the- head comments and move on!
3 is good for narrowing the roles. This can allow a more diverse set of functions that each player can make. And by more, I mean, specific loadouts. The amount of roles in a single loadout will be limited, but the amount of roles will be more distributed over specific loadouts, if that makes sense.
Let's say now, with 5 weapons as a heavy, you can perform 8 different roles with a single loadout. With only 3 weapons, you can perform only 2 roles. But you can perform the other 6 roles with 2 additional loadouts. So 3 loadouts (favorites) can perform 8 different roles with 3 weapons and 1 loadout can perform 8 different roles with 5 weapons.
The numbers might not be right on, but the give you an idea behind my thinking.
I hate to limit what the heavy can do, but almost always changing roles requires a pack change anyway, weapons are usually a secondary configuration when choosing a role.
As I said before, I dont' think it'll change things "that" much, but it will make people constuct their favorites a little more meticulously than before.
My T2 has about 10 loadouts I use, 3 of which I use most.. LD/LO (Energy, Disc/Chain/Nade), Farmer(Repair, Plasma, Disk, Chain, Missle) and HD/HO (Energy, Plasma, Disk, Chain, Missle, Mortar). I use hot keys to change packs/deployables.
Light and Medium won't be affected by the change much, imo.
KineticPoet said:
That may have been me KP. I may have issued insult to the effort by being a little too rash with the tone of a post. Insult was not my intention, though after re-reading it, I feel I may have left room for that implication to have been communicated. I appologize.
I certainly did not wish to imply that design is being handled frivolously
KineticPoet said:
KP, you're absolutely right. I spouted off the top of my head. Sometimes(ok, most..
), I post with more emotion and less thought than I should.I realize you guys are thinking about these things, but at first glance, I really, really dislike 3 weapons for all armors. I'll check your link, and I should definitely be giving you more credit than I have been.
The only thing I'll say in my defense is Thrax saying, "So at the moment our thought is three weapons for everybody. It's not set in stone, but I think it's likely." I honestly don't know how anyone who has played Tribes for any length of time can like the sounds of that. I would hope that that is up for discussion well into open beta. On paper I don't like it, and it's all I have to go on right now.
Anyways, my apologies for my uncalled-for remarks. You, especially, deserve better.
pyrot3chnic
Veteran XX
The way I see it, you have a weapon that will most likely be a no-brainer for the light and medium, the disc; while the heavy has two, the mortar and disc. In addition to a quickness handicap, you now have a flexibility handicap(ashuming the 3-3-3 stays). It's just specualtion on the weapon hierachy, but so far the disc and mortar have been in 99.9% of the load-outs for any sane tribesplayer. Zooloo has already gone in depth about it, no point in rewording it.
Most of us haven't had the chance to play the game yet, and I don't think the devs have either. A 3-3-4 seems like common sense right now, but everything will come into focus during beta.
Most of us haven't had the chance to play the game yet, and I don't think the devs have either. A 3-3-4 seems like common sense right now, but everything will come into focus during beta.
Yes, I agree that a light with only two weapon slots will not be able to duel properly.
I am saying that I believe this is the point. I also disagree with you that this will make the game some-how less fun for someone playing the light.
I mentioned that I felt you were as-suming the light would have similar roles because you did not think they would be able to get along with only 2 weapons. This would be true, using the roles of current lights. However, if the only thing the light is doing is staying at home sniping/capping then they don't really need all three weapons. If for some reason two weapons isn't enough, they should probably be in medium.
I don't feel that having too many favorites is really a problem. If your capping you will want disc/nades. If you are sniping you will want a rifle and whatever. You will pick a load-out and stay with that. If you want to chase in light for some reason you'd take disc/nade or disc/chain. But you wouldn't be able to handle all the chasing situations, so you'd probably just use medium for that to get all three disc/nade/chain.
I don't see what the medium would be good for if the light could carry three weapons. You say make the armor "better". How so? Make it faster? Why would we need it at all then, if it's the same as the light? I suppose something like medium specific vehicles would work. Or even if the medium weapon was sooo transcendant that you would take the medium jsut to use the weapon.
I am saying that I believe this is the point. I also disagree with you that this will make the game some-how less fun for someone playing the light.
I mentioned that I felt you were as-suming the light would have similar roles because you did not think they would be able to get along with only 2 weapons. This would be true, using the roles of current lights. However, if the only thing the light is doing is staying at home sniping/capping then they don't really need all three weapons. If for some reason two weapons isn't enough, they should probably be in medium.
I don't feel that having too many favorites is really a problem. If your capping you will want disc/nades. If you are sniping you will want a rifle and whatever. You will pick a load-out and stay with that. If you want to chase in light for some reason you'd take disc/nade or disc/chain. But you wouldn't be able to handle all the chasing situations, so you'd probably just use medium for that to get all three disc/nade/chain.
I don't see what the medium would be good for if the light could carry three weapons. You say make the armor "better". How so? Make it faster? Why would we need it at all then, if it's the same as the light? I suppose something like medium specific vehicles would work. Or even if the medium weapon was sooo transcendant that you would take the medium jsut to use the weapon.
THE POINT OF THIS POST
What I'm doing is simple: I'm going to discuss - independent of packs and deployables - the weapon combinations available to Tribes armors both historically and extrapolating to T:V.
THERE WILL BE SEVERAL PARTS
Tribes 1 has the following weapons...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Grenade Launcher
Plasma Rifle
ELF
Mortar
Laser Rifle
For a total of eight weapons available to the players.
How does one calculate the number of combinations without repeating any combinations in a different order?
With this formula...
For us, n is the number of available weapons, and k is the number of available slots to stuff them in. The c is the "combination" operator that performs the equation on the right.
n! is n factorial, which is equal to n*(n-1)*(n-2)*....*2*1 (stolen from Dr. Math because I'm lazy.)
In T1, the light could use 7 weapons and 3 weapon slots. He couldn't use the mortar. Therefore:
7c3 = 7! / 3!*4! = 5040 / 144 = 35
We can repeat this to discover the data for the light with up to 7 slots, down to no slots.
7c0 = 1
7c1 = 7
7c2 = 21
7c3 = 35
7c4 = 35
7c5 = 21
7c6 = 7
7c7 = 1
And the same can be applied to the medium, with his 6 weapons.
6c0 = 1
6c1 = 6
6c2 = 15
6c3 = 20
6c4 = 15
6c5 = 6
6c6 = 1
And the same can be applied to the heavy, with his 7 weapons.
7c0 = 1
7c1 = 7
7c2 = 21
7c3 = 35
7c4 = 35
7c5 = 21
7c6 = 7
7c7 = 1
So in T1, there were this many raw weapon combinations available...
Light = 35
Medium = 15
Heavy = 21
Tribes 2 has the following weapons...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Grenade Launcher
Missile Launcher
Shocklance
ELF Gun
Mortar
Laser Rifle
Plasma Gun
The light could carry eight different weapons (no mortar, no missile launcher.)
8c0 = 1
8c1 = 8
8c2 = 28
8c3 = 56
8c4 = 70
8c5 = 56
8c6 = 28
8c7 = 8
8c8 = 1
The medium could carry eight different weapons (no mortar or laser rifle.)
8c0 = 1
8c1 = 8
8c2 = 28
8c3 = 56
8c4 = 70
8c5 = 56
8c6 = 28
8c7 = 8
8c8 = 1
The heavy could carry nine different weapons (no laser rifle.)
9c0 = 1
9c1 = 9
9c2 = 36
9c3 = 84
9c4 = 126
9c5 = 126
9c6 = 84
9c7 = 36
9c8 = 9
9c9 = 1
In T2, this meant the following set of possible combinations...
Light = 56
Medium = 70
Heavy = 126
In T:V, we know we have the following weapons and we know the following restrictions...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Rocket Pod (medium and heavy only)
Grenade Launcher
Sniper Rifle (light only weapon)
Mortar (heavy only weapon)
Burner
UNANNOUNCED WEAPON ONE (medium only weapon)
UNANNOUNCED WEAPON TWO
This means the light has seven available weapons, the medium has eight available weapons, and the heavy has eight available weapons.
We can therefore just copy and paste the values we already know from the above analyses.
With a 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 56
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 56
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 4 - 4 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 70
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 4 - 5 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 70
Heavy = 56
Now to work the values with the disc launcher ASHUMED...
In this set of combinations, we now ashume the disc launcher is going to be used in all setups. This means we sort the remaining weapons with one less weapon slot to produce a final value.
In T1, people had to carry a disc launcher. The number of combinations was therefore...
Light = 15
Medium = 10
Heavy = 15
In T2, people had to carry a disc launcher. The number of combinations was therefore...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 70
In T:V, ashuming the people will always take a disc launcher, the following combinations are born...
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 6
Medium = 21
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 3 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 3 - 4 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 70
Ashuming finally, that the medium and heavy might will carry another "necessary weapon" along with the disc launcher...
Because T1 heavies often carried a mortar and a disc launcher, the number of full combinations is altered to...
Light = 15
Medium = 10
Heavy = 10
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 5 less combinations for the heavy.
Because T2 heavies often carried a mortar and a disc launcher, the number of full combinations is altered to...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 14 less combinations for the heavy.
In T:V, if the medium and the heavy both require their clbutt-specific weapons to be effective, then the followin changes take place...
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 2 - 3 - 4...
Light = 6
Medium = 6
Heavy = 21
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 35 less combinations for the heavy and 15 less combinations for the medium. This pattern continues. For the sake of brevity, I won't solve any more of these for you.
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 3 - 4...
Light = 21
Medium = 6
Heavy = 21
Note that if the medium doesn't find the armor-specific weapon a "must have", then we find the following symmetry...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 21
This is why I advocate 3 - 3 -4. More in analysis.
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 4 - 4...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 21
A symmetry finally emerges?
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 4 - 5...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 35
Remember, this is if the medium and heavy both require the disc launcher and their armor-specific weapons to be useful.
Analysis:
In this part, I simply say what I think.
Look at the numbers. If we ashume a disc launcher is a given for all three armors, and ashume the heavy's mortar is also a given, then the best model for T:V is 3 - 3 - 4.
If the medium only weapon is as necessary for the medium as the mortar is for the heavy, then the best is 3 - 4 - 4.
It gives the armors equal diversity of role without become too specified (which in my opinion is generally specified by more combinations) or too generic (which in my opinion is generally specified by less than 20 combinations.)
Ashuming historical data is correct, and certain historical weapons are still the only "must have" weapons, the best setup - just from a pure loadout combination standpoint that excludes fighting balance - is 3 - 3 - 4.
If it turns out the medium only weapon is a "must have" weapon, then we should use 3 - 4 - 4.
I rest my case.
What I'm doing is simple: I'm going to discuss - independent of packs and deployables - the weapon combinations available to Tribes armors both historically and extrapolating to T:V.
THERE WILL BE SEVERAL PARTS
- I'll discuss raw possible combinations of several models.
- I'll discuss possible combinations ashuming disc launcher as a "must have" weapon.
- I'll discuss possible combinations with the medium and heavy having a second "must have" weapon.
- I'll analyze it all.
Tribes 1 has the following weapons...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Grenade Launcher
Plasma Rifle
ELF
Mortar
Laser Rifle
For a total of eight weapons available to the players.
How does one calculate the number of combinations without repeating any combinations in a different order?
With this formula...
Code:
n!
n_c_k = ----------
k!(n - k)!For us, n is the number of available weapons, and k is the number of available slots to stuff them in. The c is the "combination" operator that performs the equation on the right.
n! is n factorial, which is equal to n*(n-1)*(n-2)*....*2*1 (stolen from Dr. Math because I'm lazy.)
In T1, the light could use 7 weapons and 3 weapon slots. He couldn't use the mortar. Therefore:
7c3 = 7! / 3!*4! = 5040 / 144 = 35
We can repeat this to discover the data for the light with up to 7 slots, down to no slots.
7c0 = 1
7c1 = 7
7c2 = 21
7c3 = 35
7c4 = 35
7c5 = 21
7c6 = 7
7c7 = 1
And the same can be applied to the medium, with his 6 weapons.
6c0 = 1
6c1 = 6
6c2 = 15
6c3 = 20
6c4 = 15
6c5 = 6
6c6 = 1
And the same can be applied to the heavy, with his 7 weapons.
7c0 = 1
7c1 = 7
7c2 = 21
7c3 = 35
7c4 = 35
7c5 = 21
7c6 = 7
7c7 = 1
So in T1, there were this many raw weapon combinations available...
Light = 35
Medium = 15
Heavy = 21
Tribes 2 has the following weapons...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Grenade Launcher
Missile Launcher
Shocklance
ELF Gun
Mortar
Laser Rifle
Plasma Gun
The light could carry eight different weapons (no mortar, no missile launcher.)
8c0 = 1
8c1 = 8
8c2 = 28
8c3 = 56
8c4 = 70
8c5 = 56
8c6 = 28
8c7 = 8
8c8 = 1
The medium could carry eight different weapons (no mortar or laser rifle.)
8c0 = 1
8c1 = 8
8c2 = 28
8c3 = 56
8c4 = 70
8c5 = 56
8c6 = 28
8c7 = 8
8c8 = 1
The heavy could carry nine different weapons (no laser rifle.)
9c0 = 1
9c1 = 9
9c2 = 36
9c3 = 84
9c4 = 126
9c5 = 126
9c6 = 84
9c7 = 36
9c8 = 9
9c9 = 1
In T2, this meant the following set of possible combinations...
Light = 56
Medium = 70
Heavy = 126
In T:V, we know we have the following weapons and we know the following restrictions...
Disc Launcher
Chaingun
Blaster
Rocket Pod (medium and heavy only)
Grenade Launcher
Sniper Rifle (light only weapon)
Mortar (heavy only weapon)
Burner
UNANNOUNCED WEAPON ONE (medium only weapon)
UNANNOUNCED WEAPON TWO
This means the light has seven available weapons, the medium has eight available weapons, and the heavy has eight available weapons.
We can therefore just copy and paste the values we already know from the above analyses.
With a 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 56
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 56
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 4 - 4 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 70
Heavy = 70
With a 3 - 4 - 5 setup...
Light = 35
Medium = 70
Heavy = 56
Now to work the values with the disc launcher ASHUMED...
In this set of combinations, we now ashume the disc launcher is going to be used in all setups. This means we sort the remaining weapons with one less weapon slot to produce a final value.
In T1, people had to carry a disc launcher. The number of combinations was therefore...
Light = 15
Medium = 10
Heavy = 15
In T2, people had to carry a disc launcher. The number of combinations was therefore...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 70
In T:V, ashuming the people will always take a disc launcher, the following combinations are born...
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 6
Medium = 21
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 3 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 3 - 4 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher with the 2 - 3 - 4 setup...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 70
Ashuming finally, that the medium and heavy might will carry another "necessary weapon" along with the disc launcher...
Because T1 heavies often carried a mortar and a disc launcher, the number of full combinations is altered to...
Light = 15
Medium = 10
Heavy = 10
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 5 less combinations for the heavy.
Because T2 heavies often carried a mortar and a disc launcher, the number of full combinations is altered to...
Light = 21
Medium = 35
Heavy = 56
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 14 less combinations for the heavy.
In T:V, if the medium and the heavy both require their clbutt-specific weapons to be effective, then the followin changes take place...
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 2 - 3 - 4...
Light = 6
Medium = 6
Heavy = 21
Ashuming a disc launcher, this means 35 less combinations for the heavy and 15 less combinations for the medium. This pattern continues. For the sake of brevity, I won't solve any more of these for you.
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 3 - 4...
Light = 21
Medium = 6
Heavy = 21
Note that if the medium doesn't find the armor-specific weapon a "must have", then we find the following symmetry...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 21
This is why I advocate 3 - 3 -4. More in analysis.
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 4 - 4...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 21
A symmetry finally emerges?
Ashuming a disc launcher and a clbutt specific weapon for the medium and heavy with 3 - 4 - 5...
Light = 21
Medium = 21
Heavy = 35
Remember, this is if the medium and heavy both require the disc launcher and their armor-specific weapons to be useful.
Analysis:
In this part, I simply say what I think.
Look at the numbers. If we ashume a disc launcher is a given for all three armors, and ashume the heavy's mortar is also a given, then the best model for T:V is 3 - 3 - 4.
If the medium only weapon is as necessary for the medium as the mortar is for the heavy, then the best is 3 - 4 - 4.
It gives the armors equal diversity of role without become too specified (which in my opinion is generally specified by more combinations) or too generic (which in my opinion is generally specified by less than 20 combinations.)
Ashuming historical data is correct, and certain historical weapons are still the only "must have" weapons, the best setup - just from a pure loadout combination standpoint that excludes fighting balance - is 3 - 3 - 4.
If it turns out the medium only weapon is a "must have" weapon, then we should use 3 - 4 - 4.
I rest my case.
- Status