Sniper rifle's suck 50% of the time

Well even if the charge thing gets bagged (I like it, but its different from the T1/T2 versions), I still would like to see the faint directional glow stay in. That makes it a bit tougher to snipe and a bit easier to evade a potential snipe.

Locke355 said:

Make it so i dont see my own line, or at the very least can turn my own line off, i dont want that cluttering up my reticle.

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Because the line would be where you're aiming and targeting is pin point, from 1st person perspectve you wouldn't anything.

I think we can come up with a solution that keeps the rifle energy-based. What would the ammo be anyway? Laser Pellets? (I know I know, energy cells or some shit) Anyway...

*gears turning in head*
I will think about you in my sleep, laser rifle...

exogen said:

I think we can come up with a solution that keeps the rifle energy-based. What would the ammo be anyway? Laser Pellets? (I know I know, energy cells or some shit) Anyway...

*gears turning in head*
I will think about you in my sleep, laser rifle...

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if you really want to justify the damn thing, yes cells. And (if taking my idea) when you are near a base or power source, they charge up. Very simple. Like your golf cart.. only you dont need to plug in a wire.

Locke355 said:

The point is there shouldn't be "snipers" in the first place. This is a game built on speed, not camping on a fucking hill. It is a "laser rifle".. not a sniper rifle. There is a huge difference. Design it as such. The only reason i use the term "snipe" when refering to hitting any shot with the laser, is because people are so accustomed to it, and I seem to already be way over your head. I dont want to lose you any further.

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^

edit - I don't agree with the above, I'm quoting it so you can see it Locke.

You're starting from this assumption, assuming we all know it, and then condemning opinions that differ with it.

Alright, here's what I came up with as I was falling asleep. This should satisfy the people who want locational stuff, i.e. Locke you might like this, although both twists on this solution keep the weapon energy based. I tried to think of a representation of how a weapon's ammo would keep charging up / refilling, and it didn't seem very good, so I came up with other representations of a similar idea.

1.) Instead of a locational effects being somewhat arbitrary (as in, okay a second ago I was in mid-field/defense, I take a step forward and now it's considered offense), make it so that the sniper rifle's effectiveness is based on whose SENSOR NETWORK you are in. As in, benefits for being in your own sensor network, etc. This could be done two ways...
a.) Damage - when in friendly sensor network, 100% damage. No sensor network, 50% damage, enemy sensor network, 20% damage you get the point, those numbers are pretty arbitrary.
OR/AND
b.) Charge-up time - I know some of you are against the charge-up time but this might be able to satisfy both crowds. When in friendly sensor network, practically no charge-up time, maybe half a second, or one second, when in no sensor network, a little longer, when in enemy sensor network, too long to be effective, or something, you get the idea.

While this does make the locational thing less arbitrary, it might put TOO much pressure on the importance of sensors. This could also be good though, I always thought that nobody paid enough attention to defending/repairing sensors in Tribes. Also it brings deployable sensors more into play. If a sniper wants to o-snipe effectively, at least make him haul a deployable sensor out there, this way he'll be confined to its radius. (that's even assuming we'll get deployable sensors...)

Alright, good night. Can't wait to see what comes of throwing these ideas out there.

Locke355 said:

if you really want to justify the damn thing, yes cells. And (if taking my idea) when you are near a base or power source, they charge up. Very simple. Like your golf cart.. only you dont need to plug in a wire.

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I think the idea of having the laser rifle 'charge' while near the base is worth considering. Best idea I have seen so far for its intended purpose. But I dont know that I agree with being able to charge up on off the enemies 'power source'. I say if you are 'x' amount of units away from your own base it simply turns into a limited ammo weapon. Once used up you can shag your ass back to the D side, or pitch the thing and head on into the enemy base area. Or you could even have a deployable 'power source' that allowed power based weapons (laser in this case) to be used farther and farther from the base.

in other news, I liked the T1 laser rifle.

Rev said:

^

edit - I don't agree with the above, I'm quoting it so you can see it Locke.

You're starting from this assumption, assuming we all know it, and then condemning opinions that differ with it.

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If you are saying i am assuming others know there shouldn't be snipers, I am not. It is my opinion, and I am defending it. Am I assuming that most people in this thread would like to see lame o-sniping go away or at least be balanced somehow? Yes.. because that is what most of the thread seems to focus on IMO. Read the first post if you are doubting that.

Now if you are talking about the game is based on speed, well, i think you are on the wrong forum then.

exogen said:

SENSOR NETWORK

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I just realized that I haven't used that term on the forums, just when arguing with Thrax about it (and then we got into projective vomit.. so it was short lived). That is what I am trying to convey with the regen ammo near bases idea. Thank you for mentioning it.

Now.. thrax is going to tell you that your idea doesn't match any of the other weapons and how they work, and is too complex. I get that feeling with damage changing, in that I dont think weapon damage should be locational. Obviously I think charge up time is a bad idea, we have been over that.

Lastly, being able to move a sensor net or whatever out to the boonies to recharge your weapon is the similar to a sniper nest. He can always go back there to recharge vs going home.. which is not desireable IMO.

Have a good evening.

this is the best part about locke's jaded personality

Hey.. i am trying to make progress!

my sig should be:


anyways

keep it in

ZOD said:

There are several balancing options worth considering when talking about the sniper rifle.

1. Very long reload time.
2. Ammo based, since it's a laser, let's say it uses energy cells that die out or some other limited power supply.
3. Lower damage value or change the type of damage it does. Perhaps a long range poker, it doesn't hurt you but will knock your ass off of your ski route or some other such annoyance.
4. It can misfire, killing it's user. :shinner:

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Or you could make it fire a bullet, in which case you'd need to aim a bit further ahead making it harder to hit?

Can someone explain to me what is wrong with the current model laser rifle? Why are all these overly complex ideas being tossed around to change the weapon?

commonsense said:

Can someone explain to me what is wrong with the current model laser rifle? Why are all these overly complex ideas being tossed around to change the weapon?

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Because Offensive Snipers are a pain in the ass and not fun to get killed by.

And because you never see it coming, which isn't fun no matter where you get sniped.

I still contend that it is worse that your only course of action against it is to send someone out to duel the o-sniper, or find someone with a rifle. In other words, unless you have a rifle (on d), there is nothing you can do about it.

If Thrax has been keeping up with this thread, he must be thinking we're making it too complicated by now... how about some input Thrax? I don't think there have been any objections to the laser sight so far, and just adding that is a pretty good balance between not changing the functionality at all and making it more fun for the snipee. It's already been debated how it would affect o-sniping, which I think would have to be tested to actually find out.

Also Lucius I don't know how much feedback you've had on your Honor Points idea (none in this thread yet), but I support it. That combined with laser sight would be a pretty good deterrant without changing functionality.

I'm not all that keen on the ideas posted to address the laser rifle issue so far. Although many are very well thought out, they just seem a little too complex to implement or don't make a whole lot of sense to the casual player.

Anyway, I just came up with an idea based on the sensor net idea that i want to run by you guys to see if it stands up to closer scrutiny:

What if there was some sort of enemy laser disruption field tied into the sensor network?
Anything within the friendly sensor net (meaning main base sensors and deployable sensors up to 1/3 of the way across the map) would emit a distortion field that either:

1-reduces damage significantly because the laser is refracted when it enters the field. Making a cool light show as it hits the disruption barrier.

or...
2- bounces the laser also creating a cool effect.

or...
3-Causes the laser to deviate slightly from the intended target (increases spread) but in a moderately predictable manner so that if you really wanted to snipe the enemy base, it would take a great deal more skill to do so. Which would make o-sniping difficult and discourage newbies from doing it.

Or...
:edit:4- Actually slow the laser down to disk speed once it hits the barrier so it's much easier to avoid and more skill based for the sniper to hit the snipee. (this would be a real pain to implement though because you would have to make the laser beam both hitscan and prediction [once it passes through the barrier] but it increases the skill requirement of o-sniping)

Or...
:edit:
5- Instead of the laser itself being effected by the sensor barrier, the barrier creates a "haze" effect that only effects the sniper scope when the enemy sniper is outside of it. Areas effected by the enemy sensor network would look like large hazy bubbles when viewed through a sniper scope. However, when the sniper enters the area of effect, the haze dissapears.
The haze also might dissapear if a either the flag, a teammate of the sniper enters it, or a freindly deployable camera/sensor is dropped within the field of effect.
This would create a bubble of visibility within the haze. Snipers would then have to wait for teammates or a flag carrier to enter the area of effect or place a sensor in it to snipe effectively. this would make it more skill based while at the same time giving the sniper a better visual idea of where sensors are located around the enemy base than his teammates. (the counter-counter)
The haze does not show up to those not using a sniper rifle, or to people on the same team as the friendly sensors.

Note: These effects are mutually exclusive. meaning that it's one of the 5 effects, but not an unpredicatable combination of all of them.

It's important to note some of my proposed limitations to the sensor/laser disruption field:

-It only works 1/3 of the way from your base to the other side of the map to allow midfield sniping which is a valid tactic. You can still place sensors anywhere, but if they are too far out, the laser disruption will fail because they are too close to the enemy base and therefore "jammed" by your opponents.

- The friendly disruption field does not effect friendly snipers, so d-sniping remains exactly as it has always been, but o-sniping becomes way more difficult because in order to do it effectively, you must go in and destroy all the sensors or deal with one of the factors mentioned above. Which is tricky if the sensors are well hidden.

:edit:- The disruption field is a thin barrier that only effects shots from outside---> inside.
so if you are close enough to the enemy base (and therefore within sensor detection) you can fire normally. This prevents long range sniping to the enemy base, while still allowing short-range o-sniping. Which takes more skill to pull off.

The advantages:

-Sensors can still be placed if the gens are down (provided there are remote invs in T:V. God, i hope so.)

-Provides a balanced counter to the sniper rifle, which up untill now has been: go out and hunt down the o-sniper. Which is lame and pretty innefective considering they can just come back and set up camp 20 seconds later.

-Discourages o-sniping, or at least makes it require a large amount of skill to pull off, while leaving D-sniping the same as it has always been and allowing midfield sniping to still be used, just not toward the enemy base as much.

-Because it only works to 1/3 of the way across the map, the rest of the map is unaffected by this change which allows the "good" kind of sniping to be done as it always has.

-The 1/3 of the way across the map rule can be increased/decreased map-by-map by mapmakers depending on what kind of gameplay they want to encourage/discourage. Also it can be turned off completely if the server admin so desires for pub/match play.

Seems like a pretty good solution to me.

What do you guys think? Does this system stand up to scrutiny? Can you think of ways this might negatively effect gameplay?


Synopsis: The sensor network effects snipers ability to snipe effectively. Here are some ideas on how this could work, and counters to balance the whole thing out. comments?

And you said the others complicated?

It causes the weapon to be unpredictable. Unless I am misunderstanding you, it also limits valid use of the rifle on offense. People do use the weapon while at the enemy base. The problem is o-sniping, not using the rifle on offense.