Sniper rifle's suck 50% of the time

Allow me to tangent somewhat. Perhaps something that feeds o-sniping is points.

Consider the total removal of personal points. Statistics should be maintained on the client-side. When people realize their 'eliteness' is not being broadcasted to everyone perhaps they will shy away from simply racking up points.

and yet, if you remove points, you'll probably eliminate a large potential audience for the game. As much as people ridicule personal point systems, they do have some value. If I could make one suggestion for T:V's point system, I'd say: adopt a system similar to Andrew's 5150 stats. Points for grabbing, assists, kills, carrier kills, returns--and weighted by the comparative "value" of each.

As for sniping.. I truly think the sniper rifle (as is) is essential to gameplay. I'm a capper myself.. and I'll freely admit that snipers piss me off The fact of the matter is.. capping for me would be ridiculously easy if it weren't for those pesky snipers. Decreasing damage at far range (or close range?!) doesnt make any sense. It's designed to be the great equalizer for those people that choose to fly way way up in the air (with the flag or otherwise). My vote is: leave it as is!

I, too, take the archconservative vote and say "Leave the sniper rifle as-is".

It may be a scrubby weapon in the hands of scrubs, but in the hands of people who use it with a purpose beyond idle killing, it IS the great equalizer, without which high-speed capping would be ludicrously unbalanced (high-level chasers may be able to catch a capper in disc/GL/CG range no problem, but one guy with a good route on a pub full of sucky chasers is going to be a lost cause without the laser rifle pecking at his back).

Blazingly fast capper jetting into the sky, far from the ravages of your defenders' and chasers' discs and chaingun bullets? Pull out the laser rifle, pick your shot carefully, and give him a new hole to breathe out of with a searing beam of coherent light. That's the name of the game.

Ben Reed said:

I, too, take the archconservative vote and say "Leave the sniper rifle as-is".

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Well, that's not going to happen, but it's also probably not going to change as much as people have suggested it should. It will be "tweaked", and then adjusted during beta.

The thing that causes the rifle to be a pain in T2 currently, IMO, is that so many of the maps are wide-open see for miles type maps. In that situation, it can only be expected that the rifle will be a popular weapon to carry.

One possible solution might be to do something such as making the damage happen over a small time period. Therefore, if the person is flying sideways across your screen then you didn't line up your shot well and won't do much damage as well as having a more difficult shot. If you're straight on with the person then you'll still do full damage and you deserve to because you either lined it up well or are standing near the flag (high risk area).

However, I don't see as "it's needed for ballance" as a reason to not change something that has problems. If something hurts the fun factor then it needs to be adjusted if at all possible, simple as that. A modified (such as what I suggested) or a different solution should be found to serve that purpose.

Gimp honestly that makes no sense, The shots where the guy is flying at you from the direct side are the hardest shots to time and line up out of any shots. Why would you penalize the extremely hard to hit shots, while rewarding the easy snipes?

ZProtoss said:

Gimp honestly that makes no sense, The shots where the guy is flying at you from the direct side are the hardest shots to time and line up out of any shots. Why would you penalize the extremely hard to hit shots, while rewarding the easy snipes?

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Well, as difficult as Gimp's idea would make things, it would separate the good snipers from those with low ping and a penchant for twitch-guns. That is, to make a side-shot, you'd have to first hit the guy and then keep the laser on him for a short period of time. Hell, there could even be a great story-related reason for it--the laser rifles in T:V just aren't capable of putting that much wattage out in a split-second like the Artemis rifle from the other games is capable of doing.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with Gimp's idea, at the very least.

'Sides, I thought us Tribes vets wanted to keep the game from being n00b-friendly.

GIMPbeowulf said:

However, I don't see as "it's needed for ballance" as a reason to not change something that has problems. If something hurts the fun factor then it needs to be adjusted if at all possible, simple as that. A modified (such as what I suggested) or a different solution should be found to serve that purpose.

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I'm an O person myself, but this post is purely an O perspective, and does not take into account the "fun factor" for D... Yeah, the sniper rifle takes away from the "fun factor" somewhat if you're on O. Now think about it from the D's perspective.. you're trying to defend your flag, enemy HO clears your HoF, and a godspeed capper grabs the flag. Assuming this isn't T2 classic where you can practically match a capper's speed by disc jumping, and assuming the cap is either a side or back cap, the LD has little chance of catching up. Enter Gimp's modified sniper rifle, where no matter how good a sniper you are, you have to keep your sights on the capper for a second or two to do enough damage to stop 'em. Fun? Hell no. My point? Dumb down the sniper rifle, and you'll be dumbing down the "fun factor" for defense.

Besides... what separates a decent capper from a good capper is the design and execution of difficult routes, where sniper threat is minimized. If you decrease the sniper threat, you decrease the general difficulty of routes that have to be executed in order to get home safely, thus decreasing the general skill level needed to cap. Not cool

Just give the damned thing ammo and a lead time.

perhaps taking the rifle away from the light would be the best solution? Give it the medium with a epack, so you can't even farm and snipe at the same time.
Fling

I can't make it through 10 pages of these ideas but I can see by Thrax's most recent post that this is still up for discusstion, but excuse me if this has been mentioned. What about limiting the number of sniper rifles a team can have on the field at a time? For instance:

Each team gets to purchase a total of 2 (this value could be changed by the server admin) sniper rifles during the game, but the catch is that the sniper rifle doesn't decay when you die. It actually stays on the ground where you died and can be picked up by the other team and used against you, or if they like they can simply toss it OOB where nobody can find it.

I think this would keep people from O sniping (but doesn't prohibit them from doing so) because people wouldn't want to travel to the other side of the map and risk the chance of losing their laser rifle to the other team, and if they do want to O snipe they're taking the risk of losing the privelege of having a sniper rifle (punishment without being kicked from the server) for the remainder of the game. You would know who the rifle holders are because their armor would look significantly different, so if someone kills one of your defensive snipers and starts to run back to his base with it you can see who it is you need to stop before he gets back with your limited equipment.

I think this idea pretty much keeps the skill of the rifle in the game, but because of what is compromised in certain situations when using the rifle will keep snipers from being so willing to use it in such annoying ways (O-sniping and/or multiple defensive snipers instead of chasers).

What do you think?

Gundamflare said:

Dunno if Lucius pointed out the fact that if you're playing LD/MD/HD or whatever, and armed with a laser, you're not chasing, meaning you're putting your money on one shot.

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With a skilled sniper that one shot is all that they may need though, the sniper-trained player is an asset to the chase team, especially if he can get that hit in, that means it takes lot less shots to kill..

It'd take consideration though on the part of the D captain as to what constitutes his team (a sniper and LD-chasers or all chasers, etc..) There's a lot of average snipers, a few good ones, but it's the master ones that are a terror on the field for the enemy.


Ark

Ambush_Bug[DTM] said:

related reason for it--the laser rifles in T:V just aren't capable of putting that much wattage out in a split-second like the Artemis rifle from the other games is capable of doing.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with Gimp's idea, at the very least.

'Sides, I thought us Tribes vets wanted to keep the game from being n00b-friendly.

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Sounds like what you are saying is a beam-style laser that takes a very small amount of time to do it's full damage, requiring the weapon to stay on target for a second or so to get the full effect in, rather than the split-second pulse effect of the later tribes lasers. Interesting idea, it would take a laser rifleman to have the skill to track a moving target while the laser does it's damage to him though.

I dunno, the concept of the laser rifle is a toughie, i lean towards the t1-style laser as a matter of opinion myself.

if I had to change it then i'd give it the following (and these are just suggestions):

the downsides:

Dependancy on the Energy Pack to generate the power of the weapon (ala T1) the laser still sucks the e-pack dry, requiring a recharge.

Most lasers use a focus crystal of series of lenses or whatnot to focus and align the light, given the power running through them you could conceivably give the laser a limited number of shots before it has to be "repaired" (firing crystal replaced) at an base (not field) ammo station, or base inventory station, or it can be an excimer (gas) type laser requiring the gas module to be replaced periodically, that would fit in with the near-retro style that these early power armors use. Say: 5-10 shots before the focus crystal/gas module is no good. with a good tribal sniper these may be all he uses in a match. aspiring oob snipers must return to base when their shots are used. (heck Thrax, you can make it eject your pink gas as the excimer would have to be refreshed after each shot (which also cools the laser barrels).. )

before the weapon fires, it fires a painter beam at the target that the main bolt rides into the target, the beam doesnt last long before the laser bolt hits, but it is visible, giving away the firer's position, and requiring the firer to hold the trigger for at least one second (maybe firing when the button is released, otherwise it's a big target laser...)

This ties the laser rifle to the e-pack, and an ammo source, so that it is no longer unlimited ammo capacity (later versions use a different focus system so they are no longer bound by these rules..)

upsides:

long range, deadly armor penetration/killing power, no single-shot kills, but maybe add some special effect like being dazzled if hit front the front or in the head by the laser bolt/painter beam...

don't give it ragdoll effect, if someone dies by a laser either make it a messy steam explosion, or have his body fall over smoking from being scorched by the lasbeam... The immense temp given off by laser weapon, contrary to Star Wars, would be more likely to be the effect of Blaine being hit in "Predator" Body tissues and Liquids instantly flash-converted to steam by the heat of the bolt.. You don't have to get gory, the steaming armor crumpling over would be cool enough.

Ark

I'd like to see a pack that shields against snipers only. Takes no energy but bends the laser around them. a "light bender"

If you have to nerf the sniper rifle (you goddamn bastards, you enemies of mankind and common decency), I vote for GIMPbeowulf's suggestion of having the beam be weak after you first fire it and then suddenly intensify about half a second later. It's easy to write canon justifying it, as Ambush Bug pointed out, and to me it seems like the best way to decrease its power without really changing its essence.

Or Ben, why not take the "painter beam" idea and then stick with the T1 rifle. Because frankly I also like the T1 laser rifle. I think a faint directional pointer on the rifle, all the while keeping the T1 functionality, would be a great thing. It would be the tweak the T:V devs are looking for.

Shadowfox said:

I'm an O person myself, but this post is purely an O perspective, and does not take into account the "fun factor" for D... Yeah, the sniper rifle takes away from the "fun factor" somewhat if you're on O. Now think about it from the D's perspective.. you're trying to defend your flag, enemy HO clears your HoF, and a godspeed capper grabs the flag. Assuming this isn't T2 classic where you can practically match a capper's speed by disc jumping, and assuming the cap is either a side or back cap, the LD has little chance of catching up. Enter Gimp's modified sniper rifle, where no matter how good a sniper you are, you have to keep your sights on the capper for a second or two to do enough damage to stop 'em. Fun? Hell no. My point? Dumb down the sniper rifle, and you'll be dumbing down the "fun factor" for defense.

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What I meant by spreading it out over a small interval of time was like maybe 1/3 of a second, not a couple. If you were mostly head-on then doing full damage would be no problem. That way it would still do some decent damage from the side, but not full damage.

Another thing to consider is that if the o clears your d enough that the capper can get a nice grab, perhaps he does deserve to get somewhere.

There are a number of different things you could do, something like making it store up energy durring trigger fire before the actual shot would be another alternative. It's logical that a snipe should be a planned shot and this would make that more of a requirment. It would also make snipers more vulnerable to getting attacked durring this time making for more personal risk for the player.

i like these quotes on this isssue.

Originally posted by Celestial
Nothing is more annoying and gay as cheating. Which i believe is the ONLY problem with online gaming.

I dont care if you mine disc, i dont care if you snipe with 20 ping, i dont care if you spam towers on sb, i dont care if you scout ram, i dont care if you OOB snipe or even IB snipe, with the exception of the obvious TEAM KILLER, whatever is LEGAL in the game is FAIR. Everyone that goes against that and makes up EXCUSES on their server, hell even if it aint their server, through my eyes they are not a true player of the game.

but thats just my opinion.

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originally posted by noyeti
Pure and simple you are trying to say that your fun is more important than the guy who is trying to enjoy turreting & playing base D. I think admins who play this way need to grow the fuck up. O-Sniping rules and other ghey BS seemingly came from the same root. PPL who can't deal with certain skilled players, and then bend the game to accomodate their own selfish desire. Can't stand a sniper? Then fucking learn how to snipe. Quit putting up idiotic rules to make other people comply with your idea of how Tribes should be played.

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the problem with your idea aeruo is that it punishes the entire team for the stupidity of a single player. That is, i cant snipe on D cuz someone who installed the game yesterday decided to go O with it.

as much as i hate to admit it i think locke's idea is the best so far.

Here's a idea for dealing with O sniping....

What if the damage a laser rifle did, was inversely proportional to the targets energy level , if your energy level basically was a shield effect against laser damage. so, if an LD is hanging out on his base, sniping him has no effect, but if a capper is at the apex of a ski, he is quite vunerable to a snipe.