[MAP PACK] Released At Last
- Thread starter Geiss
- Start date
Geiss said:
The real argument here is why are you changing the game via a Map Pack?
Mutators and Mods are available for a reason. You are changing the fundamental gameplay and there's nothing anyone can do about it (aside from not loading the map pack.)
Why was this hush hush? Why didn't we know about it until it was released?
It's a gameplay change. Gameplay changes should be kept to Mutators and Mods. You should simply forward the change to CompMOD and see if they want to add it. It doesn't belong in a Map Pack whether you think it's a great idea or not. You're forcing changes.
MUTATORS are there for a reason. So that Server Operators can turn ON and OFF based on their playing public.
I agree, gameplay changes should be made in mutators and mods...not in the maps itself. Im not agains the idea of changing spawnarmors, just not based on what map you choose.
However, is it even possible to make a quick n simple mutator/mod that changes the spawnarmor for all maps, or do you have to go and fiddle with all the actual maps themselves?
If the latter case, i totally understand your reason for doing this.
And again, thanks for your effort and work, the maps are amazing! Just wish i could find a server playing them here in europe =(
However, is it even possible to make a quick n simple mutator/mod that changes the spawnarmor for all maps, or do you have to go and fiddle with all the actual maps themselves?
If the latter case, i totally understand your reason for doing this.
And again, thanks for your effort and work, the maps are amazing! Just wish i could find a server playing them here in europe =(
{RiP}Zarious
Veteran X
Geiss said:
Does it actually modify the server to make you spawn in light, or are only the maps in the pack made to spawn you in light? Their are maps that are run on servers, and used in competition, that are not in this map pack. Beggars run is the first one that comes to mind.
I guess what has me the bothered the most about this, is that you didn't seem to consider the impact this will have on game play. Even if you think it will be a positive impact, shouldn't you have tested this idea first, rather than just doing it? In the pickup I attended, that you held 2 weeks ago, none of the maps I played started you out in light, so I assume this is something new, and completely untested.
Can we all play them for a bit first....
One of the maps during a MoFo beta map pickup game had one map that you spawned with light armor and I don't remember anybody complaining... surprised yes.... but not that it changed the game that much. For some of us who may be resistant to change, yes it may affect you.
But, please just give it a try first with an open mind.
And yes, I agree that the server should be able to control what armor you get during spawn. (but thats for another day... still using a beta server code... sigh)
One of the maps during a MoFo beta map pickup game had one map that you spawned with light armor and I don't remember anybody complaining... surprised yes.... but not that it changed the game that much. For some of us who may be resistant to change, yes it may affect you.
But, please just give it a try first with an open mind.
And yes, I agree that the server should be able to control what armor you get during spawn. (but thats for another day... still using a beta server code... sigh)
JimBodkins
Veteran X
Unless I missed something, VM is a competition mappack that will find its way onto pubs. This will sound absolutely horrible - sorry - but I dont really care about precision on pubs. I do care about precision in competition.
I'm not expressing a preference with regards to light vs medium. (I play in medium generally). I think it appears that elements of the comp community are attempting to standardize on light. It will effect pubs as the VM maps will be used. Personally, I wouldnt be willing to sacrifice what might be a step in the right direction for comp for the sake of pubs. Sorry. Horrible I know.
I'm not expressing a preference with regards to light vs medium. (I play in medium generally). I think it appears that elements of the comp community are attempting to standardize on light. It will effect pubs as the VM maps will be used. Personally, I wouldnt be willing to sacrifice what might be a step in the right direction for comp for the sake of pubs. Sorry. Horrible I know.
JimBodkins said:
But what's dumb, is that you only spawn in Light on THESE maps. There's lots more maps out there than the ones in this Map Pack and not EVERY server will run these maps.
You'll have some maps spawning in light and some in medium. Some servers you will, some you won't
If this REALLY is a change that competition wants, it should come in the form of a MUTATOR (CompMOD) so that every map/server can be covered.
{RiP}Zarious said:
map spawn points are set to light.
and yes, i did consider how this would change play. sorry that it wasnt tested, but again, most of that blame is going to be put on the community that doesnt want to participate. when i had the open beta of the maps, before the spawn changes were made, only 8 or 9 people ever showed up into the server to test these maps out. same issue with the bugs thread... i cant catch everything wrong with the maps, i cant test everything on my own. you all were given a chance to test, and with no help, why in the world waste the time to open test something no one would ever help test? i had solid input on maps from maybe about a dozen people... yet when it comes time for me to make the changes, and for everyone else to play to them, you all bitch like its my fault, which is crap because there WAS NO INPUT in the first place.
{RiP}Zarious
Veteran X
Geiss said:
Light's aren't as durable for one thing. This has really hurt, if not completely eliminated the use of the disk jump to chase. A medium capper on a route will blow light spawners away without the diskjump to help them catch up. You can't get up to speed, even in light, fast enough to catch a routed capper "or even one who llama grabs and disk jumps or e-pack boosts" without it.
Even if you do manage to catch up, you won't live long enough to kill him if their is a stand off. The turrets already rip you apart in medium, in light you won't stand a chance, not even counting the cappers team mates who will be chaining you to nothing.
It will be much easier for heavies to camp bases now. In medium, even tho I could not survive a direct mortar blast, I could use some cover, and maybe live long enough to hurt/kill the HO. No I'm just fodder, as a well placed grenade, and a disk will kill me.
In the end this actually helps the already overpowerd O. HO will kill you like your not even there indoors, standoffs will be harder to break, and occour more often, and teams that are raped will have a much harder time recovering.
JimBodkins
Veteran X
KillerONE said:
Well, that makes sense. Geiss, maybe consider doing this. Change the maps to medium and ask MF to include a reduction to light as a spawn armor in compmod. I'll talk to MF if you want. (Your call, I wont interfer unless needed).
Understand that the compmod will in all likelyhood be used in pubs as well. That would address the rest of the maps. Everything would be light spawn.
What do you think Homerpf? Geiss? He makes a good point.
{RiP}Zarious
Veteran X
Geiss said:
How were we all given a chance to test this change? I'm almost certain that it was just 2 weeks ago, 3 at the most that I was at one of the pickups for this "for which I provided feedback in a thread on this forum for the maps I played" As far as I know, this change was never even mentioned publicly before or after this pickup. I'm certain you would have gotten more ppl if you would have mentioned this in your post about the PU. How can you say their was no input on this issue, when no one even knew it existed.
Look, I really do appreciate the work and time you put into this. I feel like you did a GREAT job on fixing alot of the problems that these maps had, and made a great contribution to the community. You put forth effort that no one else seemed willing to. But for this particular issue "spawing in light as opposed to medium" their is no one but you to blame, because as far as I can tell, it was you who made this decision, and made the changes. Your using this map pack to try and push your idea of what T:V game play should be. If you feel so strongly that this is the way it should be played, why not just release the map pack, and a seperate mutator that makes ALL maps on a server spawn you in light?
comp mod is another issue along these same lines. again, when i was talking with homer and some other ppl on vent, our opinions on what's been done with comp mod thus far is mirroring the opinions on this change in spawn armor. there were alot of things done in comp mod that probably shouldnt have been done.
different story altogether, bases down to differeing opinions, yet again, on how this game should pan out in play. i would rather have people test these out in pub and competition settings, see how the game feels now that you spawn in light, before making such loud complaints. this thing hasnt even been released in full for 24 hours, and the whining started already. the point with that is, how could anything have been experienced, and i mean truly experienced, not a walk through with your team, in such a short time? true, if somehow we held a big round robin tournament or something (which doesnt sound that bad an idea actually now that i think about it) that basically has teams playing for close to 24 hours straight, that would really get the feeling across... getting into match settings with these new maps, getting the feel tested out against teams, that's what needs to be done at this point before any more complaints come in.
different story altogether, bases down to differeing opinions, yet again, on how this game should pan out in play. i would rather have people test these out in pub and competition settings, see how the game feels now that you spawn in light, before making such loud complaints. this thing hasnt even been released in full for 24 hours, and the whining started already. the point with that is, how could anything have been experienced, and i mean truly experienced, not a walk through with your team, in such a short time? true, if somehow we held a big round robin tournament or something (which doesnt sound that bad an idea actually now that i think about it) that basically has teams playing for close to 24 hours straight, that would really get the feeling across... getting into match settings with these new maps, getting the feel tested out against teams, that's what needs to be done at this point before any more complaints come in.
JimBodkins
Veteran X
Geiss said:
I agree. Things are moving quickly. That is probably why this is a controversy. Killer is correct though if even for reasons he didnt mention. The better solution to changing spawn armor to light is a mute, not map change. That gets everything. And it should be very quick. Get Adept to do a quick one to do that. In otherwords, I dont care about the impact on differences in spawn personally. But a mute would cover ALL maps, even non-VM maps.
It doesnt have to be in compmod. Seperate mutes are easy and common.
P.S.
Will the mappers piss and moan about a mute that changes their map?
Personally, I dont care and wouldnt bother asking permission to change the map with a mute. Sorry mappers.
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JimBodkins
Veteran X
Geiss said:
I believe you. I have been in a number of large projects. Things happen. Good and otherwise.
I was thinking a little about this (while getting a late breakfast - MST). Dont change the maps. Leave them as is. Lets 'commission' a mute that allows the spawn armor to be set to any armor. That way, those that want the T:V default of medium, can have that - and competition can have light. Mutes shouldnt be a big deal - some scripter just do this please - and it would satisfy everyone.
geiss, honestly, your changes have simply gone too far. mods and mutators are there for gameplay changes, not map packs.
it doesn't even matter if it is better in terms of gameplay, this is nothing a mappack should change. Even if the community hasn't tested it well enough, this isn't something someone will ever expect in a map pack. I honestly understand, that you want your work to be honored and that you try to defend yourself, but imo there is no base for discussions. You did great work with your map pack, no question about that, but you have gone too far. Simply switch spawn armor back to medium and leave such changes to mods/mutators and everything is fine.
it doesn't even matter if it is better in terms of gameplay, this is nothing a mappack should change. Even if the community hasn't tested it well enough, this isn't something someone will ever expect in a map pack. I honestly understand, that you want your work to be honored and that you try to defend yourself, but imo there is no base for discussions. You did great work with your map pack, no question about that, but you have gone too far. Simply switch spawn armor back to medium and leave such changes to mods/mutators and everything is fine.
My 2 cents. I appreciate all the work the team has put in, as stated in another thread, but I'm inclined to agree with the anti-light-spawn group for the following reason, which I haven't heard stated so far.
Pubs are nice but I evaluate this work primarily for competition. And I'm concerned that light spawn will negatively affect competitive gameplay. Right now it's important to keep some semblance of base D so that your cappers and chasers can get suited in light and be mobile. If you have no rover or invo's you can't cap or chase very effectively in most maps because you can't get in light armor. With the change to light-spawn across the board, though, this no longer becomes true.
Now all you need is a deployable invo, or you can even live off sheds from your enemies. So a team giving up its base assets would have a much better chance of continuing to play effectively. Yes this is more like T1/T2 but to me it doesn't fit the T:V gameplay overall (easy to rape, easy to repair, easy to grab, easy to run, hard to chase, hard to kill runner).
It has, in my view, the potential to create a MUCH different style of gameplay revolving around a more cluster-type style. Less strategic, LESS defensive. Awesome for pub's but in my view a step backwards for competition (T:V is already "dumbed down" enough).
I like how some maps had light spawn as a tactical change (e.g., Cinder's light spawn at base2 on Verdant), but that is limited and map-by-map.
Like I said I appreciate all the efforts and I'll try to give it a fair chance but this does give me some concerns. And yes, the mutator solution would be the best of all, then let the ladders set the rules. I've played in several PU's and tried to give inputs on these maps so please consider this constructive criticism.
Pubs are nice but I evaluate this work primarily for competition. And I'm concerned that light spawn will negatively affect competitive gameplay. Right now it's important to keep some semblance of base D so that your cappers and chasers can get suited in light and be mobile. If you have no rover or invo's you can't cap or chase very effectively in most maps because you can't get in light armor. With the change to light-spawn across the board, though, this no longer becomes true.
Now all you need is a deployable invo, or you can even live off sheds from your enemies. So a team giving up its base assets would have a much better chance of continuing to play effectively. Yes this is more like T1/T2 but to me it doesn't fit the T:V gameplay overall (easy to rape, easy to repair, easy to grab, easy to run, hard to chase, hard to kill runner).
It has, in my view, the potential to create a MUCH different style of gameplay revolving around a more cluster-type style. Less strategic, LESS defensive. Awesome for pub's but in my view a step backwards for competition (T:V is already "dumbed down" enough).
I like how some maps had light spawn as a tactical change (e.g., Cinder's light spawn at base2 on Verdant), but that is limited and map-by-map.
Like I said I appreciate all the efforts and I'll try to give it a fair chance but this does give me some concerns. And yes, the mutator solution would be the best of all, then let the ladders set the rules. I've played in several PU's and tried to give inputs on these maps so please consider this constructive criticism.