T:V Customizable huds

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DEbig3 said:
i dont doubt that well see just as much quality in t:v as we have in past tribes games. like i said, i consider the two methods to be roughly equal.. i personally prefer clientside, due to the sheer customizability of it. im not sure if you can change the client script options with unreal.. for example, changing the text of a flag grab message. if you can do stuff like that without much trouble (on a per-client basis), then i dont see any problem with it. thats just one of those little touches of personality that add alot to the multiplayer aspect of the game.. i still havent messed with unrealscript very much. i guess i should checkout that runtime engine..
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yea, let me be clear... i REALLY support them trying to carve out as much customization as they can for users. but not as scripting. i think the client settings should make room for clan arm-bands, sprays, hud tweaks, etc. that stuff just rocks and folks really enjoy it.

but let's take your example of a Flag Grab Message. i hear tribes scripters complaining that they are "losing flexibility" and custimization on things like this. but in reality, i tihnk this is stuff that can more PROPERLY be done as a server based MOD. this should NOT be a client side hack. i really mean that.

you can do just as many things as you could before, but now you merely have to get server approval to run it. this isnt a technical limit. it is a SOCIAL limit based on stronger code infrastructure.

there's no less "customizability" here. in fact, there's gonna be endlessly more than before.

to go back to the example of the Flag Grab Message, what this means is not every 12 year old with 5 minutes of scripting ability can make a hack job Flag Hud which 90% of players online might debatably call a cheat anyways. it means that IF you make a set of scripts and GUI modifications, you'll now make it as a mutator or such and servers decide whether to support it. If it is REALLY GOOD and more than 1 person wants to use it... well, then, servers might support it.

the point is folks need to stop thinking that client side is DESIRED GOAL, since quality scripting/modifications will get supported by servers anyways.

auto-fire, waypoint huds, all these things individuals run on their own... just isnt kosher for online gaming anymore.

scripters... oughta respect this and prepare to make quality mods instead of letting this kiddie scripting DEFINE what they do.

scripting is NOT just kiddie hud hacks, folks.
 
what might be nice... is if T:V has something like "mutators" but relating specifically to HUDs. thus, a server could run:

DEbig3 HUD Protocol
Panama HUD Protocol
TseTse HUD Protocol

along with whatever Mutators the server has active.

thus, clients can safely run any of the server supported HUDs and options they provide the client.

it could be a safely designed SERVER-based structure which carefully sets some broad parameters and limits on what GUI stuff is changed... (inevitably people would whine about those limits, but then they can just make more robust mods if they want).

the problem is setting standards on what is kosher or not. when you are changing the GUI materials, you inevitably open up a barrel of monkeys.

EDIT:

wannabe coder babble aside... im saying that if a SERVER wants to allow clients to have stupid HUD crap... they oughta have a simple way to allow it, thus compromising some security from the SERVER side... so that folks can basicalyl run ... cheats. if a server wants to allow this... so be it.
 
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Cusomization of HUD's, etc. are generally considered to be personal preferences; the engine has the ability to generally support these types of "client-side" modifications without delving into code at all.

The only people who should really care about the code are those who want to make "server-side" mods.

The only thing limited by this system is the ability to make major code changes (read: cheats) on the client.
 
TseTse, how far up the DEV's ass are you at this point?

It's obvious you're biased when it comes to scripting. Have you ever even done a client-side script for Tribes? Do you know anything about it? Probably not. It's pretty obvious, actually.

And while you're speaking down to everyone here, maybe, at least, try to realize most of us have been here for the last 5 years. We've come to love the abilities, yes, the abilities, of the Tribes scripting engine. The abilities, not implementation, is what most of us are concerned with.

to go back to the example of the Flag Grab Message, what this means is not every 12 year old with 5 minutes of scripting ability can make a hack job Flag Hud
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TseTse, okay, here's a fun test. Go make this script, for Tribes on a fresh install. Without installing any script packs / looking at any scripts other than the base scripts that come with Tribes.

Anyone wanna make a bet that this tool couldn't produce one by the end of the day?
 
x66 said:
TseTse, how far up the DEV's ass are you at this point?

It's obvious you're biased when it comes to scripting. Have you ever even done a client-side script for Tribes? Do you know anything about it? Probably not. It's pretty obvious, actually.

And while you're speaking down to everyone here, maybe, at least, try to realize most of us have been here for the last 5 years. We've come to love the abilities, yes, the abilities, of the Tribes scripting engine. The abilities, not implementation, is what most of us are concerned with.



TseTse, okay, here's a fun test. Go make this script, for Tribes on a fresh install. Without installing any script packs / looking at any scripts other than the base scripts that come with Tribes.

Anyone wanna make a bet that this tool couldn't produce one by the end of the day?
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It looks like you're going up shit creek without a paddle.

Let me give you what I know of tsetse. Has he done tribes scripting? He has, but not for public use, for his own. Does he know what a script looks like/how to make one? The answer is on the question above. Now let's see. He's been working with the Karma engine since almost the dawn of it's existence, and he's an excellent mapper for ut2k3. Does that certify him? I'm not sure, I guess that's a matter of opinion.

But what I Do know is that he is FAR more capable of knowing what's good on the Karma engine and what's not. That kind of information is far more valuable to Tribes future than making a script in Tribes 1.
 
Oh, and going back on topic *god damn flames*.

Something else which I was just reminded of was discussed at the panel. The ability to have a core set of scripters that would constantly make a pack or support pack if you will (Panama's banning should do well in this case :p) and constantly update it as to give the clients options at a whim. The things that were being discussed were the methods of distributions, ^BuGs^ suggested that we use CVS or something of that nature, implementing Bittorrent would be top-notch but irrevocably irrelevent at this point. Having this body of scripters would create an ever-changing gaming enviroment for both the server and the client, this would then entail users to change and customize scripts at a slower rate than if they were to do it themselves, but it maintains a significant amount of safety which is required for a 'glorious' gaming experience.

Things that need to be fine tuned are; Distribution, authors of the support pack and competition legality. but those will all be discussed as time goes by.
 
Gundamflare, really? Maybe you should let him respond for himself?
He's obviously capable.

Oh and just so you know, I used to hang in #t2mappers and have seen what he's accomplished. A couple decent T2 maps with scripts that others had provided, yay! Wonder if the lamer he "borrowed" the code from was under age 13?

Anyways, time for me to gain some insight on T:V Mapping. Thanks to TseTse, the T:V insider, I already have access to a grade A T:V mapping faq! Thanks bud!
 
x66 said:
The abilities, not implementation, is what most of us are concerned with.
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I just wanted to echo this.

Hopefully, once the beta period starts the community will be able to help you guys make sure that you've provided us with all the customization options we could ever want. Some of them are really obvious (hudmover), but i'm sure that some of them aren't.
 
KineticPoet said:
The absence of true client-side scripting is built-in to Unreal. In that sense we didn't make a conscious decision to remove client-side scripting. It happened to be a feature of the engine.

PenguinOfDoom pointed out to me that this still constitutes a form of removal. It was in T1, and it was in T2...not having it in Tribes: Vengeance, whether or not we actively removed it, still means it has been removed.

I only have a few comments for now.

1) Customization
We recognized Unreal's lack of client-side scripting as a difficult issue early on, and we immediately built client-side customization into our design. No, it's not the same as client-side scripting, but it softens the blow. So far, most people seem to grasp what "customization" means even though we haven't gone into details yet.

2) Minor Advantages
What's the difference between a cheat and an advantage? In the context of client-side scripts, is there such a thing as a "fair" advantage? Maybe. I'd call these minor advantages...y'know, those little things that don't *really* help you very much in terms of gameplay but they increase your enjoyment of the game. This is the trickiest issue, in my opinion. I agree that it would be nice to preserve this ability in T:V. That's why, in the interview, I said that we're prepared to discuss this issue in the months to come. The absence of client-side scripts is a starting point for us as a result of the engine upon which we're building.

3) Major Advantages
If having waypoint bindings to flaggers in T1 is crucial to your enjoyment of the game (as it is for me and many others), and if it gives you an advantage, shouldn't it be included as part of the game? I think so. There are certain scripts in both T1 and T2 that people shouldn't have to find on the net and download themselves. They should be built-in to the game. We're designing and implementing these sorts of features up front. We'll listen to feedback during open beta and take a look at what scripters come up with, and then consider adding client-side features accordingly. Finally, at Sierra's discretion, this process can continue post-release. As a last resort, it's still possible to create sanctioned client-side script packs that run on a server and all clients that connect to it.

4) Cheating
Notice in the interview that I was careful with my wording. I said the lack of client-side scripting makes cheating "less viable." I would never claim that it eliminates cheating, because it doesn't.

Hopefully that clears some things up. The only promises that I can make at this point are that T:V has client-side customization, and that we're considering the remaining 3 categories above on an ongoing basis,
KP
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That's from http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4221220#post4221220

I think we'll be able to reveal more details early next year, but we've tried to take everyone's concerns into account without having to spend ages re-architecting anything. I'm not guaranteeing you'll be 100% happy with the solution, but hopefully it'll be better than nothing,
KP
 
Here's my prediction of what is going to happen:

Sierra will continue to be gay on their attitude towards client scripting. They won't officially support running unsigned code on the client side. The result: the client gets cracked to run ANY unsigned code in uscript, and we have nice aimbots and wallhacks without the need for external .exe/.dll hacks.

It HAS happened for other games on the Unreal engine, and given the interest and the ability of players to code, it WILL happen in T:V.

I do not want the equivalent of "Pro Pack" for T:V forced upon me because I'm playing on a server. I don't want to be forced to use plain vanilla setups because a server doesn't have the same "script packs" installed. They have a chance now to implement and secure scripting ability for clients. If they don't we'll just have see what happens. I'm sure it won't be good.
 
I think KP summed it up quite clearly. From that post, I'll assume, for now, that no client-side scripting capabilities will be present in the game.

KP would've hinted at the server-based allowances, that would allow the client to run 'certain' scripts. He obviously didn't mention anything of the sort.

So, everyone posting that hear-say bullshit, please quit. Thanks.
 
LouCypher said:
I do not want the equivalent of "Pro Pack" for T:V forced upon me because I'm playing on a server.
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While sanctioned script packs will always be an option, that's not the solution to which I was referring. Our solution is more powerful and flexible than that but not as powerful as Torque client-side scripting. As several people have pointed out, Unreal isn't architected that way and we don't have the resources (nor, aguably, the incentive) to completely re-architect it,
KP
 
x66 said:
I think KP summed it up quite clearly. From that post, I'll assume, for now, that no client-side scripting capabilities will be present in the game.
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Sorry, I should've pointed out that that quote is from several months ago. After the discussion in that thread we re-evaluated our design and came up with a solution that we'll discuss with you guys in a couple months. You're right though, T:V doesn't have Torque-style client-side scripting,
KP
 
Look, we have discovered an irrefutable correlation between client-side scripting and chronic datelessness. It's for your own good!
 
x66 said:
TseTse, how far up the DEV's ass are you at this point?
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rolling

on the floor

I've found myself skipping over his posts because they're useless long-winded drivel.
 
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