Originally Posted by Zoolooman

If this "predictability as an important gameplay element" is something you haven't heard, either ask KP (he'll know) or ask me to make a big post about it.

Edit: I apologize if any of this post was difficult to read or presumptuous. Blame it on the fact that I wrote it hours after I'd normally be asleep.

not at all. thanks for the very well thought out and written post. we are very aware of the ballistic predictability based gameplay of t1 via KP of course.

to counter your arguments consider the frustraction of new players, they cant easily gain height, they intuitively combine forward and thrust and expect 45degrees instead of a flat thrust curve, and they want to be able to correct in the air (and this makes dodging possible) because they suck.

imo we have to let people move around, but punish them (via energy use) for needing to correct, hence the new players still have an edge over them. we're not there yet, but we're working hard on it -- its fair to say that our current build is probably more newbie friendly (but not 'noobified' really) than veteran friendly, and we're working on this.

consider the new player that jets to reach a platform, but underestimates, they want to correct. they get annoyed if they cant. -- with our physics system, the new player can jet to the platform, mess it up in a minor way, and still have enough thrust (if they spend all their energy) to correct and hit the platform.

now to allow for this level of forgiveness at low end movement, and 'compression' of thrust boost to quickly get new players up to 35kph when thrusting (which is afterall, just running speed), without toasting it for vets, thats our challenge.

so let us know if you have any ideas how we can do both, because honestly, the extra maneuverability and thrust power at low end is there for a reason, and i'd be sad to see it nerfed - because at the end of the day, this is what will attract new players to the game.

Zoolooman speaks the truth

OMG do you just read what you want to read? Just make it an option in game, default it is noobified, with a recommended for new players disclaimer, not hard

Originally Posted by jpr333

OMG do you just read what you want to read? Just make it an option in game, default it is noobified, with a recommended for new players disclaimer, not hard

Omg yeah, just set it so the fundamental part of a physics engine is changed from client to client, that'll work, right?!

Twit.

Originally Posted by Zoolooman

Good luck experimental. You ought to sit down with KP some day, and work completely on physics.

yep. i'm the physics programmer, so thats what i do

Or just make it compulsory in SP, giving it as an option in multiplayer or an option you unlock in sp. There problem solved, and stop attacking the credibility of Zoolooman who is only tring to make it a better game, he is concerned, as am I.

Originally Posted by jpr333

OMG do you just read what you want to read? Just make it an option in game, default it is noobified, with a recommended for new players disclaimer, not hard

i'm explaining why things in the physics are the way they are, in the hopes that you guys can come up with some ideas how we can make what works well for new players also work well for vets.

i sure hope its possible, because i really do want to keep you both happy. and i view a classic set of configs vs. TV base an last resort, and something that is not my call to make anyway.

Originally Posted by jpr333

Or just make it compulsory in SP, giving it as an option in multiplayer or an option you unlock in sp. There problem solved, and stop attacking the credibility of Zoolooman who is only tring to make it a better game, he is concerned, as am I.

i never attacked zoolooman, i agree with the points that he is making, and they are consistently inline with the way that KP feels, which tends to lend credibility to both players.

please stop reading what YOU want to read. i'm describing how the physics is now, and what has driven it to that point, and what its trying to achieve - and i'm trying to get clear feedback from you guys so that we can come up with a solution that keeps both camps happy. thats what sierra wants.

Originally Posted by dan-o2

Omg yeah, just set it so the fundamental part of a physics engine is changed from client to client, that'll work, right?!

Twit.

Are you retarded? How is it changing the physics? All experiemental has to do is code in the ability to use all that thrust in the direction of your movement keys, like in t1/t2. Having the OPTION to change the settings on how your player moves does not change the physics engine retard, its an OPTION. Grow up. Noobs can play online and thrust upwards to their herats content, while vets will look for the speedier more efficent lower arcing way of travel. The noobs can either adapt, or continue playing in their vertical wonderland. What do you think makes classic so fun and fast paced.

i liked this video!


maybe thrusting power is a little too powerful and flagfinder icon should go but it looks
very promising indeed. For some reason those trails didnt bother me much in this
vid..dunno..disclauncher is way too slow...huds arent anything that impressive but
seem to be ok..

choppiness is probably because of huge bitrate..




all those whiners who seriously cry about floatiness should be shot, this baby hasnt
even hit alpha yet

Sweet then experimental, then you'll consider it? As zoolooman said saying it is a considerable part of the gameplay in t1/t2 is an understatement. There is plenty of time for fixes and changes.

Edit- Ooh lol i thought you were being sacrastic about the well written comment, gah internet sarcasm doesn't work, thrax sets a bad example for devs lol.

Anyone knows what are those antenas on top of bases?

Originally Posted by jpr333

Are you retarded? How is it changing the physics? All experiemental has to do is code in the ability to use all that thrust in the direction of your movement keys, like in t1/t2. Having the OPTION to change the settings on how your player moves does not change the physics engine retard, its an OPTION. Grow up. Noobs can play online and thrust upwards to their herats content, while vets will look for the speedier more efficent lower arcing way of travel. The noobs can either adapt, or continue playing in their vertical wonderland. What do you think makes classic so fun and fast paced.

as i said before, two seperate configs are an absolute last resort. ideally we're looking for a way to keep both players happy -- please read my developer diary i wrote a while back explaining the general approach we're taking (adjusting the behavior of the jets with horizontal speed to be more like t1) before you suggest that we just give up and ship a noob config, and a classic config.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/496/496551p1.html

if you disagree with anything in there, or you can think of a better way to do it, please let me know! i'm seriously open to ideas and i want to create a physics model that keeps both camps happy.

essentially, we need physics that new players can pick it up and play, and not be a complete spaz - while veteran players have a long and difficult skill curve to reach complete mastery.

easy to learn and hard to master. not just hard to master.

Why not please both noobs and vets together with segregated physics.. ie the game ships with a set of newblood friendly physics and a set of veteran friendly. If you havent beaten t:v singleplayer &/or clocked 10hrs online play...veteran servers are greyed out/dont show/cant join them. Servers in teh browser display veteran or newblood along with map name, ping etc. Vets with knowledge can bypass this with .ini edits if they desire to go straight to vet servers if they desire. Servers default to newblood physics when using the default shipped config, so server ops without a clue auto set newblood servers, while vet server ops set it to vet physics etc.

Noobs can enjoy the game on their level, and upgrade to vet servers if they desire after 10hrs etc.. also the noob physics would keep alot of vets away from those players/servers and not spoiling the noobs early experiences.

America's army is like top5 played and it has all those qualification missions before u can online play.

Originally Posted by jpr333

Sweet then experimental, then you'll consider it? As zoolooman said saying it is a considerable part of the gameplay in t1/t2 is an understatement. There is plenty of time for fixes and changes.

Edit- Ooh lol i thought you were being sacrastic about the well written comment, gah internet sarcasm doesn't work, thrax sets a bad example for devs lol.

I like this mature and nice side of you more...makes me not wanna shoot you so badly

and btw, thanks for all the input so far exp. we appreciate your work.

Well I can honestly not think of a way this can be solved without having a different config. It is just one option though, even though it considerably affects gameplay, hopefully by the time noobs have gone through SP and tried out MP and they are actually able to stay in the air for more than a few seconds, they will be forced to learn and adapt or like I said continue to get owned (well in ctf anyway). Well I can't really see them getting owned, they will just be less useful in ctf mp as they will not be able to pickup speed as quickly. Right now the only option I see is making it an option. :/

Originally Posted by experimental

as i said before, two seperate configs are an absolute last resort. ideally we're looking for a way to keep both players happy -- please read my developer diary i wrote a while back explaining the general approach we're taking (adjusting the behavior of the jets with horizontal speed to be more like t1) before you suggest that we just give up and ship a noob config, and a classic config.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/496/496551p1.html

if you disagree with anything in there, or you can think of a better way to do it, please let me know! i'm seriously open to ideas and i want to create a physics model that keeps both camps happy.

essentially, we need physics that new players can pick it up and play, and not be a complete spaz - while veteran players have a long and difficult skill curve to reach complete mastery.

easy to learn and hard to master. not just hard to master.

omg just after i post :/

Originally Posted by jpr333

Sweet then experimental, then you'll consider it? As zoolooman said saying it is a considerable part of the gameplay in t1/t2 is an understatement. There is plenty of time for fixes and changes.

Edit- Ooh lol i thought you were being sacrastic about the well written comment, gah internet sarcasm doesn't work, thrax sets a bad example for devs lol.

hell no, i meant it. its exactly what KP says about physics too, hence i believe it is true.

its important for us to understand what makes t1 for you guys, while t1 is flawed for new players, it has a gameplay that is very precious to you. we dont want to destroy this, but we do want to make it more accessable to new players, and to improve it.

please help us improve it, keep an open mind with the changes we've made, and try to suggest how we can mesh it in with what makes t1 physics so classic for you -- our first pass at this basically involves two things.

1. high acceleration and maneuverability at 'low end' (say 50kph horizontal speed)

2. cant exceed 50kph with thrusting alone, you need to ski. newbs have fun, but are capped.

3. 50kph-100kph horizontal you are in 'intermediate zone' and you cant gain speed effectively with thrusts, your maneuverability gently starts tapering off to be more like t1.

4. 100kph+ horizontal you are in high end and physics is much like t1, maneuverability is greatly reduced (maybe even tapering off to completely ballistic with no control at 150kph? 200kph?)

these numbers are of course, just ballparks, and the physics determining this 'high end' is mostly in place but not complete. its fair to say that the physics is more biased to the low end at the moment, and not as balanced at the high end as it deserves to be.

we are aware of this, and we really want to make it right for both camps, work with us!

Well there better be dj's then :p Seriously you guys are approaching it the right way, 50k's isn't very fast at all though. America's Army Online did ok with a training program before playing online though, besides the irrelevant fact it was free.

i was thinking..

skiing would appear more 'organic' if your character would bend his knees a little when
landing.