Crom's T:V Impressions from GDC by Crom - Page 14 - TribalWar Forums
Click Here to find great hosting deals from Branzone.com


Go Back   TribalWar Forums > Current Gaming > Tribes Talk
Reload this Page Crom's T:V Impressions from GDC
Page 14 of 34
Thread Tools
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
261 - 03-29-2004, 20:16
Reply With Quote
You didn't address the hint issue, which would make repair kits intuitive to all but the biggest retards.

I'm sick of the whole "clunky" and "not intuitive" argument. Complete bullshazbot in this regard.
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
Sponsored Links
ZProtoss
10,000++
Old
262 - 03-29-2004, 20:22
Reply With Quote
Removing repair kits for the sole reason that new players may have trouble remembering to use them is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Considering how it's simple to use them, and how much it does add to the depth of the the gameplay as a whole.

Making a game easier for new players is *not* always better in the long run. To prove that all you have to do is look at SC v War3. SC was unbelievably hard for new players to even come 1/1000th as close as touching some of the best in the game. However that very same diversity gave SC its amazing longevity at all levels of skill. With War3 blizz took the simplify everything to a ridiculous amount approach, and while war3 was successful (the blizz name is to thank for many, *many* of the sales), the game has had much less success in online longevity than SC had. Because everything was simplified so much.

Now, I realize T1 wasn't even *remotely* close to SC in sales, and that Sierra would be thrilled beyond their dreams if T:V even got a half of the sales War3 got. But its easy to compare and see the similar aspects relating to skill curve and see a potential link.

To put it in perspective. You can talk about skiing and speed being the main part of the game, and make that as skillful as before. However, if you erode every other part of the initial game, you'll find that it also effects the main part in being skillful. Blizzard continually touted micro as being the main part of an rts game and claimed war3 would have as much skill involved as SC in that area. As it turns out, it wasn't close. Simply because blizz gutted the macro element so badly, that microing was far easier when dealing with ultra limited amounts of high health units. It was the same interface as SC, but due to *EVERYTHING* else getting eroded even the micro aspect so widely touted wasn't nearly as skillful.

I haven't thought much about the gutting of some things I've heard about in T:V in the name of making it easier for new players, but when *simple* things like the health kit get cut in the name of "Helping the new player", it lends serious questions as to how much has been simplified in that same cause. Because while skiing and speed may be the main support of the house, that same house isn't going to look anywhere near as good or be as nice to live in if everything around that main support is torn down or broken in some form.
 
ZProtoss is offline
 
KineticPoet
VeteranX
Old
263 - 03-29-2004, 20:29
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegisteredFruit
You didn't address the hint issue, which would make repair kits intuitive to all but the biggest retards.
I didn't address it because Shoddy already indirectly addressed it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoddy
You could have the repair kit auto-use itself once you take a kit's worth of damage by default, together with a subdued announcement of that event. Of course, you'd also need to add:
a key to use it manually
a spot in the settings to enable/disable auto-use (or tristate to include use on first damage)
a HUD element to indicate presence/absence of kit
a model for dropped kits

which seems like a lot of work at this point.
If you go so far as to hint when you should use a repair kit, why not force new players to use it automatically when they need it? Which leads to Shoddy's accurate line of thinking. Having said that, we'll likely have hints of some sort.

Quote:
I'm sick of the whole "clunky" and "not intuitive" argument.
Letting the discussion tire you isn't going to help change anybody's mind. Try to stay focussed and present new arguments,
KP
 
KineticPoet is offline
 
Fubar
VeteranXV
Old
264 - 03-29-2004, 20:31
Reply With Quote
We can present arguments pro/con all day. But I think it's been said in the past, you guys have a design, a plan, and are pretty much sticking to it.

NO matter what we think, are we going to change a gameplay aspect, i.e. heath kits, oob grids etc?

I think not. I just hope it's fun, I am also getting tired of hearing of things being streamlined for the masses. I know the point is to make a good game and make it sell bigtime, but at what cost?
 
Fubar is offline
 
KineticPoet
VeteranX
Old
265 - 03-29-2004, 20:38
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZProtoss
Removing repair kits for the sole reason that new players may have trouble remembering to use them is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Considering how it's simple to use them, and how much it does add to the depth of the the gameplay as a whole.

Making a game easier for new players is *not* always better in the long run. To prove that all you have to do is look at SC v War3. SC was unbelievably hard for new players to even come 1/1000th as close as touching some of the best in the game. However that very same diversity gave SC its amazing longevity at all levels of skill. With War3 blizz took the simplify everything to a ridiculous amount approach, and while war3 was successful (the blizz name is to thank for many, *many* of the sales), the game has had much less success in online longevity than SC had. Because everything was simplified so much.

Now, I realize T1 wasn't even *remotely* close to SC in sales, and that Sierra would be thrilled beyond their dreams if T:V even got a half of the sales War3 got. But its easy to compare and see the similar aspects relating to skill curve and see a potential link.

To put it in perspective. You can talk about skiing and speed being the main part of the game, and make that as skillful as before. However, if you erode every other part of the initial game, you'll find that it also effects the main part in being skillful. Blizzard continually touted micro as being the main part of an rts game and claimed war3 would have as much skill involved as SC in that area. As it turns out, it wasn't close. Simply because blizz gutted the macro element so badly, that microing was far easier when dealing with ultra limited amounts of high health units. It was the same interface as SC, but due to *EVERYTHING* else getting eroded even the micro aspect so widely touted wasn't nearly as skillful.

I haven't thought much about the gutting of some things I've heard about in T:V in the name of making it easier for new players, but when *simple* things like the health kit get cut in the name of "Helping the new player", it lends serious questions as to how much has been simplified in that same cause. Because while skiing and speed may be the main support of the house, that same house isn't going to look anywhere near as good or be as nice to live in if everything around that main support is torn down or broken in some form.
Hey Z, thanks for the thoughtful feedback. I definitely agree that if you cut too many corners, however small they might be, the end result can look much different (and potentially worse) than you expect.

I share your concern. But I have to remind myself that for every corner we've cut, I think we've added another corner that we're at least slightly uncertain about.

What I mean is that, in the case of repair kits, we can think about what they mean and how their removal might affect the game. We can accept that their removal is a simplification and we can debate forever whether or not that's a "good thing."

But then there are some things we've added and changed that, quite frankly, scare me a little, but in a good way I think. We can't say for sure how they'll affect the game or what crazy things people will do with them. It's these things that will allow everyone, new and old players alike, to keep learning and improving and discovering. We've already learned everything there is to learn about the repair kit. In that respect, it's not giving me much more depth anyway, y'know?

This thread is becoming a time drain for me so I'll have to call it quits for today...I'll check back later to see if anyone has any new arguments that I can communicate to our team,
KP
 
KineticPoet is offline
 
taoofjord
VeteranX
Old
266 - 03-29-2004, 20:50
Reply With Quote
KP,


Couple questions:

#1

UT2K4's onslaught mode is pretty complex, yet people certainly took the time to figure that one out. Doesn't that show you that the mainstream gamers aren't all lazy bums?

I'm sure it helps that the vehicles were a great way to kill things fast and make you feel like you are doing something, but T:V has that as well. (With the vehicles) I understand where you're coming from but I'm sure theres another way... (which leads me to #2)



#2

If you want the repair kit to be known to mainstream gamers, why not put a symbol in the HUD that says loud and clear "You have not used your repair kit!", Maybe a mini box with a medic symbol that is in color, but grayed out once you've used it. Then, make sure it's next the the health meter, so players can make the connection more readily.

Then to make it even more obvious, you could have (for example) a button like F1 where it lights up the HUD and points to each section of it and explains what it means. This would make it so you could include it in the demo, it would be readily accessible even for those who are impatient, and would help gamers understand the HUD ASAP.


You could also have another button that gives you all the info on the "little things" that you are worried most gamers will miss and get frustrated with. Not to mention tips on the loading screen, and maybe descriptions of each action on the button mapping screen. There are plenty of possibilities here...


#3

Just a random question, but I was wondering how many hits it takes to kill each armor with the spinfusor (direct hit).




No matter what you gus choose, however, I'll be hoping for the best, you guys deserve the sales and Tribes needs a larger community. Besides, whatever the hardcore fans DON'T like, can be changed in a mod.
 
taoofjord is offline
 
Last edited by taoofjord; 03-29-2004 at 20:57..
Dac346_99
Old
267 - 03-29-2004, 21:01
Reply With Quote
I happen to think this is very logical and you can see a pattern.

All of the underlying little quirks to playing tribes are gone and that is good.
1) Streamlining any game for intuitive easy controls.

Is a huge fudgeing goal for such a game.

Think about it.

Jump+Jet.
Skiing.
AutoMax Gernade throw.
Automax Mine throw.
AutoRepair pack.

If you take away some of these pointless tediums such as hitting repair pack when health needs it.. or holding down a key to throw a gernade, or hitting spacebar and hitting right click. They all lead to a slightly longer skill curve for newbies that takes no skill. All you have to do is learn it. I don't think no repair packs, jump+jet, etc takes any real skill.

If they took away MAs, Skiing, etc... maybe.

BTW DJ is still alive.. + devs have said before... People MIGHT USE repair packs to cap so they can DJ...

It just adds more dimensions to the game then less..

Maybe medium cappers? Different packs for different routes and vrs different Ds..



I think some other changes that might happen.

Turrets dont need to be aimed.. where you stand is where they are put.?


I also think there might be more shazbot with flag tossing or something like it in CTF.

ALSO..

Cliff notes sorta

You want a sleek fast fighter? shrike?
You want repair kit? t2 had them
You want jump+jet? t2 had them too
Elf? t2 had that
Useless mediums for outdoor fighting? t2 had that
3,4,5 weapon slots.. t2..

Did that shazbot make t2 good?

sKiing, Fast action, Skill, and drama are Tribes. Not the fluff.
 
Dac346_99 is offline
 
Last edited by Dac346_99; 03-29-2004 at 21:07..
Thrax Panda
God Complex4
Old
268 - 03-29-2004, 21:08
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfen
Being able to use the light wasn't part of the core gameplay of T1/T2? I'm not interested in waiting for another game to be 'molded'. : \
You're jumping to conclusions that are unfounded. Light isn't useless, nor are you prevented from disk jumping.
 
Thrax Panda is offline
 
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
269 - 03-29-2004, 21:11
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by KineticPoet
I didn't address it because Shoddy already indirectly addressed it:

If you go so far as to hint when you should use a repair kit, why not force new players to use it automatically when they need it? Which leads to Shoddy's accurate line of thinking. Having said that, we'll likely have hints of some sort.


Letting the discussion tire you isn't going to help change anybody's mind. Try to stay focussed and present new arguments,
KP
Perhaps you should present a new argument AGAINST repair kits. So far your "not intuitive" argument has been chewed to pieces and is clearly not justification for removing it. If you agree with shoddy's idea, why not present it to the team? It sounds great to me as long as it's toggleable.

You posts almost seem to agree that there should be a repair kit, yet you won't go as far as to say it.
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
Dac346_99
Old
270 - 03-29-2004, 21:14
Reply With Quote
sum1 make a hud script.. It shows you having 3/4 healtth.. when u hit q or whatever it is bound to.. it fills to full... no actualy change... or more health...

Thats pretty much how it works now unless it is a complete newbie who forgets...
 
Dac346_99 is offline
 
DiRtNaP
Veteran
Old
271 - 03-29-2004, 21:15
Reply With Quote
I am not at all worried about this.

IT's Very hard to let that miracle key that saved your ASS in t1/t2 go.

For lack of a better term it's a pacifier. Plain and SImple.
Let it go, and trust the judgment of your Dev team. They have many things they haven't even told you yet and it's easily added back in should they overlook something in Beta testing.

Have any of you seen the repair pack in action? How fast it replenishes your health? How it may aid better than a repair kit could ever do?

There is so many Different scenerios that you can't think of.
Example:

Light Defense / Chasers no longer use a Energy pack. Sound stupid? Perhaps not. Should they master the art of hitting a ski route BETTER than a capper can, they then can afford to DJ, heal, and possibly gain the advantage over a capper to get a return.

Same could be said for a capper? Skill and creative uses Dictate the outcome.

I learned watching Bluenose/Natural/Slam/Slut/TRD and other vets in T1 demos and I learned many things also in t2 demos.

How many times have you watched someone do something for the first time and said. "Wow thats a great IDea?" Or "I didn't know you could do that?"

Thats what made you want to try learn new things in Tribes/ which in turn made the game what it is.

Speak up when beta hits. Thats what it's their for.

and try to let go of the pacifier. It's a true show of faith. It's a BIG leap.
I am taking the plunge with an open mind.
 
DiRtNaP is offline
 
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
272 - 03-29-2004, 21:18
Reply With Quote
I've tried to trust the dev team, but all these issues have worn away at me. I can honestly say I have little hope for T:V right now.

The skiing system does sound like it could be good, though. Hopefully a mod will fix the gameplay so we can enjoy it.
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
Dac346_99
Old
273 - 03-29-2004, 21:24
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegisteredFruit
I've tried to trust the dev team, but all these issues have worn away at me. I can honestly say I have little hope for T:V right now.

The skiing system does sound like it could be good, though. Hopefully a mod will fix the gameplay so we can enjoy it.
What issues?

No targetting laser?
No repair pack?

Just because they are familiar.

Tribes != repair kit, targetting laser, carrying every gun possible in a heavy, never using medium, overpowered fighter vehicle, jump+jet.
 
Dac346_99 is offline
 
Shoddy
VeteranX
Old
274 - 03-29-2004, 21:25
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegisteredFruit
Perhaps you should present a new argument AGAINST repair kits. So far your "not intuitive" argument has been chewed to pieces and is clearly not justification for removing it. If you agree with shoddy's idea, why not present it to the team? It sounds great to me as long as it's toggleable.

You posts almost seem to agree that there should be a repair kit, yet you won't go as far as to say it.
]

He said it was discussed at length, and all these points were part of that discussion, but the design team decided against including repair kits. So, unless there are new considerations for the design team to discuss, there's no point in reopening the issue.
 
Shoddy is offline
 
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
275 - 03-29-2004, 21:31
Reply With Quote
The overpowered nanoorg repair pack, jet boost, boostpads, the removal of the repair kit, no TL, limited play area. The only ones in this that I can see killing Tribes for me is the lack of a repair kit and the limited play areas. Also, I haven't seen the repair pack in action so I can't make a final judgement, but so far it sounds terrible. Everything else (especially the "not intuitive" argument) shows that the dev team isn't headed in the right direction.
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
276 - 03-29-2004, 21:32
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoddy
]

He said it was discussed at length, and all these points were part of that discussion, but the design team decided against including repair kits. So, unless there are new considerations for the design team to discuss, there's no point in reopening the issue.
Perhaps he could present their arguments against it... otherwise I'm inclined to believe that these meetings involved more beer than discussion.
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
Mr. Hated
VeteranXX
Old
277 - 03-29-2004, 21:32
Reply With Quote
the more i hear the more uninterested i get =[ and i dont want to NOT be interested
 
Mr. Hated is offline
 
VektorX
VeteranXV
Old
278 - 03-29-2004, 21:36
Reply With Quote
So DJ pretty much almost kills a light probably, and with no repair kit, it's pretty much useless as a capper, or chaser, so wtf is a light armour good for now?
 
VektorX is offline
 
RegisteredFruit
VeteranX
Old
279 - 03-29-2004, 21:37
Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by VektorX
So DJ pretty much almost kills a light probably, and with no repair kit, it's pretty much useless as a capper, or chaser, so wtf is a light armour good for now?
read the thread
 
RegisteredFruit is offline
 
taoofjord
VeteranX
Old
280 - 03-29-2004, 21:37
Reply With Quote
Guys, you should just wait till the open beta to play it and form your opinion. No reason to give up on the game now.

IMO, there's no reason to be disinterested. Even if you don't have faith in irrational, there WILL be mods that will bring the gameplay you want. So yes, you will be getting your Tribes 1 with better graphics.

Just give it time.




edit:


Let's not forget about the single player. Remember, Ken Levine (System Shock 2) wrote the story for this, so you can rest assured it will be damn engrossing.
 
taoofjord is offline
 
Page 14 of 34
Reply


Go Back   TribalWar Forums > Current Gaming > Tribes Talk
Reload this Page Crom's T:V Impressions from GDC

Social Website Bullshit


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


AGENT: claudebot / Y
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:51.