Vengeance Vengeance
- Thread starter Marweas
- Start date
Long post coming up, but I felt like I needed every word. I'm not a real Tribes player or fan, although I enjoyed the games somewhat, but I have been following your community. This is my perspective.
It's nice to see that Tribes has spiraled down into the same path Starsiege is now in. Dynamix rushed the game and left it in a bugged stae, and its final patch actually broke some parts of the game. Havas had control of all the intellectual properties, and now subsequently, so does VU. A lot of Sierra-bashing was going around at this time as well, and a lot of people didn't like many of the people that you guys now love over at GG, because the alpha versions of the game were drastically different than the final version (more fun) and the final version barely had any of the promised content that had been hyped in magazines and interviews for months ahead of time.
Obviously, now that the game is 6 years old, we've come to terms with the reality that the game has no future in the hands of the parent company. But, we still have a future in 2845, of sorts. It's possible, if unlikely, that if it does indeed succeed, then VU may have interest in the brand name afterwards, and may persue a revitalization of its existence in some form.
Speaking out of "professional experience" with being screwed but persisting on, attacking VU in any form will get you nothing. Rather than lashing out because you think you have nothing left, look to the future of what may be years from now. You may think that it's too long to wait for, but if you don't care about the game that much anyway, then you should just leave now, because the series as it is, is dead. If anything, you need to start building friends within VU, if not actively, but simply by avoiding conflict with them and laying out a foundation as a community that they can look on years from now and say, "The Tribes fan base still exists, and what is left still supports VU enough to warrant them with a chance to move out on their own, in their own way."
One thing I've seen that would kill this idea off the bat is the lack of cohesion or real thought amongst the community. Everyone looks back to old experiences and wants to build off of a game they loved, rather than recognizing the flaws and avoiding the same troubles in making a new game. There's also a lack of maturity, obviously.
Once again, speaking from experience, in Starsiege, there were various problems with the gameplay, but when 2845 was theorized, it was completely different. A lot of newcomers were pointing out tiny problems like "this component should do this, unlike in game X," or "so and so vehicle should return, except with these stats." I see a lot of that in the Tribes community, just people nitpicking over things that wouldn't even matter in a new game. The cloak pack should return, the grappler shouldn't, turtling should be discouraged, etc. - none of it matters at all. That's the lack of cohesion of thought that currently exists that, if bred further over the years, will destroy any thought of Tribes itself for a long time to come. I see some people try to come up with some general ideas, like a new game should be less sporty, or focus on a higher learning curve, but nothing concrete or relatively useful.
IMO, this is what you all need to do if you want to keep Tribes alive:
1) Do nothing to VU. They're the hand that feeds you, regardless of whether or not the hand belongs to a dragon. If you try to make a game like Tribes without the actual composition of a Tribes game, you're not only liable for intellectual infringement, but you're also throwing aside much of what attracts Tribes players to new games - the name. Look at Legends (no offense): the game itself plays in many regards like Tribes, but it's not Tribes, and does not have anywhere near the success, and it's not a game unto its own. It only tries to emulate Tribes.
2) Begin making design documents about Tribes as other kinds of games. Imagine Tribes as a combined arms game, a tactical RTS, a vehicular game. Expand your notions of what Tribes can be rather than thinking, "spinfusor, jetpack, skiing, rinse and repeat." That will not work. If your game is worth continuing, it has to have room to expand into new areas rather than the same one that's been emulated three times and failed to please every time. There's only one way to present an idea for a Tribes game that no one can be dissapointed with, and that's to make a game so radically different from the first that there's no comparison to be upset about.
3) Expand as a community. Right now, everyone is only interested in flying around and shooting people, and trying to be popular on the internet because you can do it better than the other players. This is why Unreal Tournament is essentially the same exact thing it was ten years ago. The series is slowly dying out of disinterest, because there's absolutely nothing to build on other than the name. The most important element to carrying a franchise is to build the name. Now look at Star Wars. Games have been released that had absolutely nothing to do with fighting with lightsabers or using the Force at all, yet they succeed because they carry the name. But why is it possible for them to carry the name? Because the original concept carries with it the potential for such a thing to exist.
Republic Commando is a game based on a military tactical FPS, something that has no place in any of the movies or other games, yet it fits perfectly because the story allows it, and people are interested in seeing that side of things. I really doubt this will ever happen, but you all need to get more interested in the Tribes backstory and history rather than just the game. To me, as an outsider, this seems to be the biggest possible hindrance you have within your community as a whole. No one cares about the series, only about the game.
Starsiege itself lived not because we enjoyed the combat (I hated Starsiege itself) but because we loved the storyline, we loved the atmosphere. People always ask the 2845 staff, "Why not just remake Starsiege and call it something different, with different locations?" Even Jeff Tunnel suggested this early in development. The answer is because it wouldn't be the game we wanted. The story is what united us after half a decade of playing a stagnant game. A story can't become stale because it can always expand, but a game can become boring, and you can always find something relatively the same. Most of the reason most of you seem to be here still is because no one has made another AAA title game exactly like Tribes.
4) Don't let the idea that a game has to be released in a box poison your idea of what a sequel can be. A lot of people in our community refused to follow 2845 because it's being made by the fans. But honestly, if the fans aren't limited in their perspective of what a new game can be, who else is better to make the game? Normal developers are total outsiders to the franchise, people that have no business even thinking about making the game, yet people refuse to question them because they're unseen entities that seem to come down from on high with the power to make something we can only dream about. Screw that. Irrational had only a few people at most that had any experience with Tribes at all. They had to learn what Tribes was in a few months just to get an idea down, and they released a "finished" game in about a single year. What amount of time is that to affiliate yourself with a series enough to make a brother for it? That's why VU hired them, you have to understand: Irrational makes okay games, yet they've made so few that they're relatively cheap, and they make their games quickly.
5) Get familiar with people associated with previous titles. Whether it be Marweas, Blake Hutchins or Jeff Tunnel, no one in the community will follow you long enough to garner the support necessary to survive independently unless you have the hype to build off of. For 2845, it was Blake, since it brought a sense that this attempt was legitimately potential of success. There had been many attempts at a "Starsiege 2" before, but all failed because they were little known, had only a few members, little trustworthiness, too little experience, but especially because they had no backing from the rest of the community, no faith in their success.
Blah blah, total conclusion:
Wait a few years, let the people that don't care crap out of your community so they won't screw things up, form up with an undeviated goal in mind, and bust out hard and big onto the scene, so no one can push you back.
It's nice to see that Tribes has spiraled down into the same path Starsiege is now in. Dynamix rushed the game and left it in a bugged stae, and its final patch actually broke some parts of the game. Havas had control of all the intellectual properties, and now subsequently, so does VU. A lot of Sierra-bashing was going around at this time as well, and a lot of people didn't like many of the people that you guys now love over at GG, because the alpha versions of the game were drastically different than the final version (more fun) and the final version barely had any of the promised content that had been hyped in magazines and interviews for months ahead of time.
Obviously, now that the game is 6 years old, we've come to terms with the reality that the game has no future in the hands of the parent company. But, we still have a future in 2845, of sorts. It's possible, if unlikely, that if it does indeed succeed, then VU may have interest in the brand name afterwards, and may persue a revitalization of its existence in some form.
Speaking out of "professional experience" with being screwed but persisting on, attacking VU in any form will get you nothing. Rather than lashing out because you think you have nothing left, look to the future of what may be years from now. You may think that it's too long to wait for, but if you don't care about the game that much anyway, then you should just leave now, because the series as it is, is dead. If anything, you need to start building friends within VU, if not actively, but simply by avoiding conflict with them and laying out a foundation as a community that they can look on years from now and say, "The Tribes fan base still exists, and what is left still supports VU enough to warrant them with a chance to move out on their own, in their own way."
One thing I've seen that would kill this idea off the bat is the lack of cohesion or real thought amongst the community. Everyone looks back to old experiences and wants to build off of a game they loved, rather than recognizing the flaws and avoiding the same troubles in making a new game. There's also a lack of maturity, obviously.
Once again, speaking from experience, in Starsiege, there were various problems with the gameplay, but when 2845 was theorized, it was completely different. A lot of newcomers were pointing out tiny problems like "this component should do this, unlike in game X," or "so and so vehicle should return, except with these stats." I see a lot of that in the Tribes community, just people nitpicking over things that wouldn't even matter in a new game. The cloak pack should return, the grappler shouldn't, turtling should be discouraged, etc. - none of it matters at all. That's the lack of cohesion of thought that currently exists that, if bred further over the years, will destroy any thought of Tribes itself for a long time to come. I see some people try to come up with some general ideas, like a new game should be less sporty, or focus on a higher learning curve, but nothing concrete or relatively useful.
IMO, this is what you all need to do if you want to keep Tribes alive:
1) Do nothing to VU. They're the hand that feeds you, regardless of whether or not the hand belongs to a dragon. If you try to make a game like Tribes without the actual composition of a Tribes game, you're not only liable for intellectual infringement, but you're also throwing aside much of what attracts Tribes players to new games - the name. Look at Legends (no offense): the game itself plays in many regards like Tribes, but it's not Tribes, and does not have anywhere near the success, and it's not a game unto its own. It only tries to emulate Tribes.
2) Begin making design documents about Tribes as other kinds of games. Imagine Tribes as a combined arms game, a tactical RTS, a vehicular game. Expand your notions of what Tribes can be rather than thinking, "spinfusor, jetpack, skiing, rinse and repeat." That will not work. If your game is worth continuing, it has to have room to expand into new areas rather than the same one that's been emulated three times and failed to please every time. There's only one way to present an idea for a Tribes game that no one can be dissapointed with, and that's to make a game so radically different from the first that there's no comparison to be upset about.
3) Expand as a community. Right now, everyone is only interested in flying around and shooting people, and trying to be popular on the internet because you can do it better than the other players. This is why Unreal Tournament is essentially the same exact thing it was ten years ago. The series is slowly dying out of disinterest, because there's absolutely nothing to build on other than the name. The most important element to carrying a franchise is to build the name. Now look at Star Wars. Games have been released that had absolutely nothing to do with fighting with lightsabers or using the Force at all, yet they succeed because they carry the name. But why is it possible for them to carry the name? Because the original concept carries with it the potential for such a thing to exist.
Republic Commando is a game based on a military tactical FPS, something that has no place in any of the movies or other games, yet it fits perfectly because the story allows it, and people are interested in seeing that side of things. I really doubt this will ever happen, but you all need to get more interested in the Tribes backstory and history rather than just the game. To me, as an outsider, this seems to be the biggest possible hindrance you have within your community as a whole. No one cares about the series, only about the game.
Starsiege itself lived not because we enjoyed the combat (I hated Starsiege itself) but because we loved the storyline, we loved the atmosphere. People always ask the 2845 staff, "Why not just remake Starsiege and call it something different, with different locations?" Even Jeff Tunnel suggested this early in development. The answer is because it wouldn't be the game we wanted. The story is what united us after half a decade of playing a stagnant game. A story can't become stale because it can always expand, but a game can become boring, and you can always find something relatively the same. Most of the reason most of you seem to be here still is because no one has made another AAA title game exactly like Tribes.
4) Don't let the idea that a game has to be released in a box poison your idea of what a sequel can be. A lot of people in our community refused to follow 2845 because it's being made by the fans. But honestly, if the fans aren't limited in their perspective of what a new game can be, who else is better to make the game? Normal developers are total outsiders to the franchise, people that have no business even thinking about making the game, yet people refuse to question them because they're unseen entities that seem to come down from on high with the power to make something we can only dream about. Screw that. Irrational had only a few people at most that had any experience with Tribes at all. They had to learn what Tribes was in a few months just to get an idea down, and they released a "finished" game in about a single year. What amount of time is that to affiliate yourself with a series enough to make a brother for it? That's why VU hired them, you have to understand: Irrational makes okay games, yet they've made so few that they're relatively cheap, and they make their games quickly.
5) Get familiar with people associated with previous titles. Whether it be Marweas, Blake Hutchins or Jeff Tunnel, no one in the community will follow you long enough to garner the support necessary to survive independently unless you have the hype to build off of. For 2845, it was Blake, since it brought a sense that this attempt was legitimately potential of success. There had been many attempts at a "Starsiege 2" before, but all failed because they were little known, had only a few members, little trustworthiness, too little experience, but especially because they had no backing from the rest of the community, no faith in their success.
Blah blah, total conclusion:
Wait a few years, let the people that don't care crap out of your community so they won't screw things up, form up with an undeviated goal in mind, and bust out hard and big onto the scene, so no one can push you back.
thanks for the thread Marweas.
All flaming and utter negativity aside....these are the things I would like:
1-An actual sequal to Tribes. Not a new tribes. Not a dumbed down tribes. I would like a tribes that rewards skill, is marketed and developed correctly, and not rushed to meet a deadline.
Since that is a lofty desire, it'll take some time. So, in the meantime:
2-A fixed T:V. A patch that fixes known bugs, and game imbalances to include bases, armors, packs, and vehicles.
All flaming and utter negativity aside....these are the things I would like:
1-An actual sequal to Tribes. Not a new tribes. Not a dumbed down tribes. I would like a tribes that rewards skill, is marketed and developed correctly, and not rushed to meet a deadline.
Since that is a lofty desire, it'll take some time. So, in the meantime:
2-A fixed T:V. A patch that fixes known bugs, and game imbalances to include bases, armors, packs, and vehicles.
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I want:
T1/T2C physics, enhanced T2 command screen, T2 inventory system and
every gametype, every weapon, every vehicle, every pack, and every deployable from all the tribes games.
All wrapped in a beautiful looking engine that can:
Replicate the above mentioned physics
Support large team battles
Allow server admins to turn on or off any weapon, any vehicle, any pack, and any deployable. (Let the community decide what works for comp or pub...the community is too fragmented to unite on this anyway...and you'll turn less away from the sales counter)
Attract a healthy modding community
Man, the Tribes series has had much of its pioneering elements borrowed from to produce many successful games. It needs to be re-released on gamers in its entirety. Throw in everything including the toilet and market it that way. Tell em the mother of all team online fps has returned and she's gonna let you customize her to your liking.
You want T1 style only play?......you can have it
You want T2 style with vehicles?....you can have that too
You want shocklance only CnH with just heavies?....yep even that
T1/T2C physics, enhanced T2 command screen, T2 inventory system and
every gametype, every weapon, every vehicle, every pack, and every deployable from all the tribes games.
All wrapped in a beautiful looking engine that can:
Replicate the above mentioned physics
Support large team battles
Allow server admins to turn on or off any weapon, any vehicle, any pack, and any deployable. (Let the community decide what works for comp or pub...the community is too fragmented to unite on this anyway...and you'll turn less away from the sales counter)
Attract a healthy modding community
Man, the Tribes series has had much of its pioneering elements borrowed from to produce many successful games. It needs to be re-released on gamers in its entirety. Throw in everything including the toilet and market it that way. Tell em the mother of all team online fps has returned and she's gonna let you customize her to your liking.
You want T1 style only play?......you can have it
You want T2 style with vehicles?....you can have that too
You want shocklance only CnH with just heavies?....yep even that
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The ability to customize is great but you still must have the properly designed base game that inspires the masses. Look at BF2, they are releasing the mod tools before the game is even out but it's still the way the developers came up with the sequel that has attracted the attention in the first place.
T2 inspired the masses, sure vets(even though there were plenty who didn't)hated it with a passion but at least they had the ability to change it to how they saw fit.
T2 inspired the masses, sure vets(even though there were plenty who didn't)hated it with a passion but at least they had the ability to change it to how they saw fit.
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pocketgamer
Veteran X
This has gotten way offtopic. People are trying to discuss different parts of the phase.
We need seperate threads to handle:
*What will be presented to VUG and what we will do to screw them
*List of our demands
*If demands are met, list of what we want to do with Tribes
*Get Garage Games to make things happen
*Raise money to mass distribute game and advertise it
This can't all be done in one thread. Right now we need to create a list of demands, and someone who does legal, write it into a nice looking paper.
We need seperate threads to handle:
*What will be presented to VUG and what we will do to screw them
*List of our demands
*If demands are met, list of what we want to do with Tribes
*Get Garage Games to make things happen
*Raise money to mass distribute game and advertise it
This can't all be done in one thread. Right now we need to create a list of demands, and someone who does legal, write it into a nice looking paper.
Infamous Butcher
Veteran XX
Nothing will come of any of this. This sheepish community reacts to anything. First T:V is the king's shit, then it's fuck T:V let's all go to Legends, and now everyone is ready to take on VUG. LOL
What really is going to happen is you are going to sit behind your computer and take it in the ass like you've done with the past 2 Tribes games.
The shame of it all is that a brilliant idea for a game franchise fell into the wrong hands.
Long Live Tribes!
What really is going to happen is you are going to sit behind your computer and take it in the ass like you've done with the past 2 Tribes games.
The shame of it all is that a brilliant idea for a game franchise fell into the wrong hands.
Long Live Tribes!
donnykrun said:
Would you rather have Tribes: The Third One or a Tribesesque game? Would you rather see VU publish another successful Tribes game or just see them suffer?
One of each decision leads to a dead end. You just have to compromise or comes to terms to you don't really want a new game.
WeRe-|WoLf|-
Contributor
pocketgamer said:
Yeah, it's obvious not many are reading the whole thread, and the impetus of Alex's ideas are kind of buried in the middle so far.