experimental
Veteran X
sYs|yavor said:
my sincere apologies. of course its meters per second squared. i'm just crunching to release alpha now, and i'm not quite 100% with it
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my sincere apologies. of course its meters per second squared. i'm just crunching to release alpha now, and i'm not quite 100% with it
New players to baseball can't immedeatly get a hit. Or throw a strike. Or catch a flyball.
And you know what, I bet that pisses them off.
However, if you take away the skill it takes to catch the flyball, or make that hit, or throw that strike, what's the point of the major leagues?
I know exactly what irrational is trying to do catering to new players, but it isn't possible to do so and maintain the high level of skill at the same time. I think instead of dumbing down the game, they should beef up the tutorials to bring new players up to that level of play (the single player you guys love so much.)
Isn't that the point of sp anyways?
And you know what, I bet that pisses them off.
However, if you take away the skill it takes to catch the flyball, or make that hit, or throw that strike, what's the point of the major leagues?
I know exactly what irrational is trying to do catering to new players, but it isn't possible to do so and maintain the high level of skill at the same time. I think instead of dumbing down the game, they should beef up the tutorials to bring new players up to that level of play (the single player you guys love so much.)
Isn't that the point of sp anyways?
experimental
Veteran X
Chadman said:Just watched the film.
1. Changing direction in the air seems to be quite easy. There seemed to be no sense of weight of this armour, and inertia/momentum. Changing direction at high speed is kinda hard irl, but it didnt appear to be the case in the film. I understand that this is powered armour, with all the benifits involved, but its still governed by the law of physics?
2. Weight is also related to my question of the rag doll effect. From films ive seen, included this one, the bodies do seem to bouncy overly on contact with the ground/static objects. Is there any plans to put a bit of mass into these animations so they appear a little less cartoony, and a bit more real world like? (im not suggesting motion capturing cadavers!
3. Jet trails : I for one would like to see puffs of smoke, and such like rather than lines, and they would then disperse after a time. Otherwise the trails could be seen to shout "HERE I AM" to any would be LD, or capper killer!
ok, #1 everything is real physics according to newton's laws, with real weights in the characters, somewhat realistic acceleration due to gravity, and all movement being implemented with forces to get the intended effect. as i described before we've also implemented a thrust overdrive to give a bit more low end (changing direction power) across the board for all states (ground based and thrusting) which gives you the tighter feel when dodging in the air. this is strictly a low end thing when you are first starting off or changing the direction, which effectively compresses the time to get up a moderate speed when thrusting lowend.
ragdolls use a completely different physics system and are not fully tuned. the ragdolls do not follow the same rules (weights etc.) that the players do, so they are not consistent unless we force them to be. we know about this and its a low priority polish bug we'll fix in beta.
effects and so forth are not strictly my area, but consider at least that the trails do serve some purpose in communicating your trajectory, and that in a game with more maneuverability at low end, this is probably a good thing.
aesthetically i think a lot of the effects will improve, consider a lot of things to be first or second pass -- lots of polish stuff is due to be done after alpha, and effects are of course in this category.
experimental
Veteran X
triple said:
who said we wanted to take away skill? why must it be insanely difficult to do menial tasks, like say, jetting a short distance from A->B in the platform tutorial in T1.
easy to learn, hard to master guys.
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Since nobody else seems so inclined I'd just like to point out I really like the T2 Base physics a lot better than the T1 physics
For me personally they are not soupy and there are quite a few agreeing with me, but they don't seem to be really vocal on TW
As for T:V, I'll watch the video this weekend and still say nothing untill I can actually play it. A movie just doesn't say anything about how a game feels when you actually play it.
Thanks Exp for the feedback and background info on the physics as it is now implemented. I kinda agree with your pov, but also with the people here that say that SP can/should be the training ground to be able to function well in MP.
If I start playing a new racing game immediately online without having familiarised myself first with the car handling, I get thrashed too.
In racing sims they have all these neat options you can activate like steering help, braking help.
Can't the same type of assistance not be included in T:V for jetting? If you're a vet you disable it, because your own handling will in the end be better than the help of the PC.
For me personally they are not soupy and there are quite a few agreeing with me, but they don't seem to be really vocal on TW
As for T:V, I'll watch the video this weekend and still say nothing untill I can actually play it. A movie just doesn't say anything about how a game feels when you actually play it.
Thanks Exp for the feedback and background info on the physics as it is now implemented. I kinda agree with your pov, but also with the people here that say that SP can/should be the training ground to be able to function well in MP.
If I start playing a new racing game immediately online without having familiarised myself first with the car handling, I get thrashed too.
In racing sims they have all these neat options you can activate like steering help, braking help.
Can't the same type of assistance not be included in T:V for jetting? If you're a vet you disable it, because your own handling will in the end be better than the help of the PC.
Thats just ridiculous. If you think it was insanely difficult, then i don't know what. Insanly difficult is like doing mario bros 3 in 14 minutes. Thats INSANELY difficult, not flying from a platfrom to another in T1, i learned that after 2 mins. Noobs aren't as dumb as you guys think.experimental said:
Please Close Reg's.AeoIus said:Since nobody else seems so inclined I'd just like to point out I really like the T2 Base physics a lot better than the T1 physics
For me personally they are not soupy and there are quite a few agreeing with me, but they don't seem to be really vocal on TW
As for T:V, I'll watch the video this weekend and still say nothing untill I can actually play it. A movie just doesn't say anything about how a game feels when you actually play it.
Thanks Exp for the feedback and background info on the physics as it is now implemented. I kinda agree with your pov, but also with the people here that say that SP can/should be the training ground to be able to function well in MP.
If I start playing a new racing game immediately online without having familiarised myself first with the car handling, I get thrashed too.
In racing sims they have all these neat options you can activate like steering help, braking help.
Can't the same type of assistance not be included in T:V for jetting? If you're a vet you disable it, because your own handling will in the end be better than the help of the PC.
T2 Physics are fairly soupy, sounds like you never played enough tribes1 (Probably without a ski script either), you actually feel bumps and bruises in Tribes1, now I played a fair bit of Tribes 2, it wasn’t awful, but t2 Base was. Classic is very much better.
It sounds as if you’re one of the 30 people who latched on to T2 Base, when Classic was far superior, but besides that, T1 play is harsh, you feel the terrain, you do not float down, you do not glide over terrain, its rough, and that is my favorite part about t1… Immersion, I always felt detached from the character in t2.
Now regarding the video, I realize this is Alpha or Pre-Alpha, but:
I am very optimistic about the game even though some things look wrong or out of place.
1) I like some of the guns, really liked the Disc launcher, but I have a few questions or problems: The disc launcher reload is very good, and gives me an accurate measure of when I can fire again, in t1 or t2 it was more a timing thing rather than seeing the disc was ready again, did anyone notice the reload rate is a bit faster than t1 or t2? I thought it seems about 20-30% faster than usual, not saying its bad but just lower. I think the goal should be for the Disc to continue to be the bread and butter gun, the damage output didn’t seem to be there. and seemed a little low velocity.
2) The Chaingun, It looked fairly in effective, we’re seeing a lot of laterial movement in this game (between laterial gets, the grappling hook, etc), Colosus looked ineffective whenever he tried to chain, could be user error… is the cone fairly large?
3) Can we roughen up the landings in the hud, make you feel a little more immersed? I haven’t gotten a chance to play like most people, seemed a little bit too floaty, but who knows, didn’t play.
4) Friend // Foe indicators. Were they not finished yet? I saw some friend ones but didn’t see any foe ones? can we get the standard:
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|
\/
5) Grappling hook looked fine… no thoughts either way.
6) I thought the Flag trail was stupid…
7) Disc Jumps?
Great Video, The grappling hook really looks fantiastic and it looks to me like you've got physics for it down perfectly. Well done on that new addition.
The only thing I can pull out of that video as a possible cause for concern is the seemingly VERY low FPS we were seeing. Was this video taken on a test machine or on col's laptop? I'm just wondering the specs of the machine used in the video I guess and holw high end a machine is really going to be required to run all this eye candy come beta time?
Lots of tweaking and optomization to be done there i'm quite certian. Other than that I think the game looks fantastic I'm really eager to get my hands on beta
By the way - Disk jumping has ALWAYS been gay and that will never change. It was an exploit guys come on. It seems the improved jetting system removes the need for pulling your gun out and shooting it your feet. My hope is that an attempt ti disk jump will wound a light so badly that it becomes pointless. If you need that quick an emergency getaway where are your teamates?
The only thing I can pull out of that video as a possible cause for concern is the seemingly VERY low FPS we were seeing. Was this video taken on a test machine or on col's laptop? I'm just wondering the specs of the machine used in the video I guess and holw high end a machine is really going to be required to run all this eye candy come beta time?
Lots of tweaking and optomization to be done there i'm quite certian. Other than that I think the game looks fantastic I'm really eager to get my hands on beta
By the way - Disk jumping has ALWAYS been gay and that will never change. It was an exploit guys come on. It seems the improved jetting system removes the need for pulling your gun out and shooting it your feet. My hope is that an attempt ti disk jump will wound a light so badly that it becomes pointless. If you need that quick an emergency getaway where are your teamates?
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experimental said:
this has probably been covered in the 3 pages i haven't read, but my biggest concern about the increased thrust at low speeds is that the newbs aren't going to be able to hit anything. The vets are already complaining about how hard prediction is going to be in dueling, i can barely imagine what it's going to be like to be a complete newb to tribes and have to deal with it.
Do the Bots in SP take advantage of using thrust in mid-air to dodge? If they don't it's not going to help anyone make the jump to MP (in that regard), where using jets to dodge will be common.
Sorry, I've only read up to page 9 so I don't know if it's been said yet, but here's a random idea that you can chew on...
Concerning the instant vertical thrust:
I rememeber what frustrated me the most in Tribes 2 when I first started. It was the slow vertical thrust when I was trying to reach a door above me from a still position. As well, it annoyed me when I needed to move around inside a base, they were constructly oddly, and until you had a hang of the controls, it was very, VERY frustrating to move around and fight inside them. A lot of this had to do with the level design, but it was the slow thrust as well. It is important to note, however, that when I was moving around outside, it didn't annoy me. It was only when I needed a big vertical thrust to get inside a door in the base high above me. Especially when I missed, making me have to wait 8-10 seconds for the jet pack to recharge so I can try again.
I think the issue in T:V can be rectified in a number of ways. First, lessen the vertical thrust so you don't get instant height. Make it weak enough to appease the vets but still strong enough that it's not like Tribes 2. Then, to help those who get annoyed with platforms you can make the grappling hook available to everyone at all times (doesn't count as a weapon). Make it the "~" key, or somethign that can be easily selected at all times and easy to remember. As well, make a point in the single player to stress how you can use it to aid your completely vertical thrusts for when you need to reach a door in a base, etc. This way, when someone wants to get into a base from a still position, they shoot the hook up, reel it in and use their jets together. This allows them to speed up their vertical movement for certain situation when it would annoy them the most.
Now with this idea, comes many important factors. First and most importantly, the level design. I noticed that in the Arena map, it will have many places in general where it could be very annoying to play if you were using the Tribes 2 vertical thrust. It wouldn't flow well at all. But on other levels, by making more ramps (that lead to a door above you), people won't have to worry about needing to thrust vertically from a still position as often. Also, you'd need ot make sure that there is always something to latch onto above each door. As well, you need to think about how fast the hook reels you in, so it would be benefit those who need it for vertical movement, but wouldn't make it too difficult to hit someone who uses it when they're skiing. (You wouldn't want them to reel themselves in instantly to avoid everything thats being shot at them)
I hope this helps somewhat. I know it kinda goes against the KISS idea, but really, everyone loves grappling hooks and I don't think it'd be a bad idea to make that a *core* part of the gameplay. Yes, it's "one more thing" to get used to but it's a grappling hook, but it's simple to use and looks extremely fun. I don't think people would get impatient with it.
On a side note, I have to say, the video is spectacular. Other than the necessary tuning up and polishing, and the generally ugly trail lines (they're pretty jagged and too long) I think this game will be one of the best of the year. It's very pretty and looks like a lot of fun. I don't see what all the fuss is about. Good job IG
edit:
Read this:
"also, in our current build (not e3 unfortunately) if you kill somebody while they are thrusting, their jetpack stays on and the ragdoll gets thrusted around like a balloon then breakdances on the ground."
I love it! You have to keep that! It adds variety and will make killing people more satisfying. Please don't get rid of it
Concerning the instant vertical thrust:
I rememeber what frustrated me the most in Tribes 2 when I first started. It was the slow vertical thrust when I was trying to reach a door above me from a still position. As well, it annoyed me when I needed to move around inside a base, they were constructly oddly, and until you had a hang of the controls, it was very, VERY frustrating to move around and fight inside them. A lot of this had to do with the level design, but it was the slow thrust as well. It is important to note, however, that when I was moving around outside, it didn't annoy me. It was only when I needed a big vertical thrust to get inside a door in the base high above me. Especially when I missed, making me have to wait 8-10 seconds for the jet pack to recharge so I can try again.
I think the issue in T:V can be rectified in a number of ways. First, lessen the vertical thrust so you don't get instant height. Make it weak enough to appease the vets but still strong enough that it's not like Tribes 2. Then, to help those who get annoyed with platforms you can make the grappling hook available to everyone at all times (doesn't count as a weapon). Make it the "~" key, or somethign that can be easily selected at all times and easy to remember. As well, make a point in the single player to stress how you can use it to aid your completely vertical thrusts for when you need to reach a door in a base, etc. This way, when someone wants to get into a base from a still position, they shoot the hook up, reel it in and use their jets together. This allows them to speed up their vertical movement for certain situation when it would annoy them the most.
Now with this idea, comes many important factors. First and most importantly, the level design. I noticed that in the Arena map, it will have many places in general where it could be very annoying to play if you were using the Tribes 2 vertical thrust. It wouldn't flow well at all. But on other levels, by making more ramps (that lead to a door above you), people won't have to worry about needing to thrust vertically from a still position as often. Also, you'd need ot make sure that there is always something to latch onto above each door. As well, you need to think about how fast the hook reels you in, so it would be benefit those who need it for vertical movement, but wouldn't make it too difficult to hit someone who uses it when they're skiing. (You wouldn't want them to reel themselves in instantly to avoid everything thats being shot at them)
I hope this helps somewhat. I know it kinda goes against the KISS idea, but really, everyone loves grappling hooks and I don't think it'd be a bad idea to make that a *core* part of the gameplay. Yes, it's "one more thing" to get used to but it's a grappling hook, but it's simple to use and looks extremely fun. I don't think people would get impatient with it.
On a side note, I have to say, the video is spectacular. Other than the necessary tuning up and polishing, and the generally ugly trail lines (they're pretty jagged and too long) I think this game will be one of the best of the year. It's very pretty and looks like a lot of fun. I don't see what all the fuss is about. Good job IG
edit:
Read this:
"also, in our current build (not e3 unfortunately) if you kill somebody while they are thrusting, their jetpack stays on and the ragdoll gets thrusted around like a balloon then breakdances on the ground."
I love it! You have to keep that! It adds variety and will make killing people more satisfying. Please don't get rid of it
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H
HolidayRepeater
Guest
Well, I'll say this:
I've played hundreds of hours of T1 MP, I really loved the game. While
I wouldn't consider myself "hardcore" I still prize the game as one of
the best MP experiences ever.
I spent this week playing hours of T:V and all I have to say is that
it is strictly superior to T1 in virtually every regard. It is a more kinetic, intuitive, and ultimately more satisfying experience.
You might think I'm biased because I'm an Irrational employee, but trust
me, our offices are on different hemispheres and we pull no punches when
giving feedback on each others projects. T:V is going to be a stellar game.
I have every reason to believe it will be the title that moves Tribes from underground hardcore obsession to mainstream hit. Simply because it's
better designed.
I've played hundreds of hours of T1 MP, I really loved the game. While
I wouldn't consider myself "hardcore" I still prize the game as one of
the best MP experiences ever.
I spent this week playing hours of T:V and all I have to say is that
it is strictly superior to T1 in virtually every regard. It is a more kinetic, intuitive, and ultimately more satisfying experience.
You might think I'm biased because I'm an Irrational employee, but trust
me, our offices are on different hemispheres and we pull no punches when
giving feedback on each others projects. T:V is going to be a stellar game.
I have every reason to believe it will be the title that moves Tribes from underground hardcore obsession to mainstream hit. Simply because it's
better designed.
Experminetal - If you are the physics guy, I'm glad you're hear and listening..
The physics/movement are what made t1 great. To intentionally dumb down a physics model is to betray anyone who wishes to excel at a game.
Like I said in another thread.. A pool table is the same for everyone, but noobs and pros can enjoy it without having to dumb it down for noobs.
You are going to F* yourself out of depth and you're conciously doing it.
Lemme just name a few games with sweeter than life physics/inertia/movement:
Tribes 1
Descent
MotorCross Madness 1 (it's just like t1 skiing, if anyone ever played it)
And this stupid, but fun game: Lunar Lander
You guys ever played those games? You know that feeling of "natural inertia" that they all have?? That's what this new game is looking like it lacks.
Again - You are conciously DUMBING DOWN A PHYSICS MODEL and it will bite you in the ass because you are sacrificing DEPTH.
In any world sport, noobies play with the same equipment and on the same playing field as the pros and millions of new players are attracted to these sports every year. If you think that things need to be "dumbed down" and more "newbie friendly", then you are breaking the most proven recipe out there. Leave the playing field with maximum depth!!
Don't dumb it down.
People want a challenge and that's what keeps them coming back!
Don't fudge this up, man.. You are conciously fudgeing with a proven recipe - that sports do not need to be dumbed down to cater to everyone.
The physics/movement are what made t1 great. To intentionally dumb down a physics model is to betray anyone who wishes to excel at a game.
Like I said in another thread.. A pool table is the same for everyone, but noobs and pros can enjoy it without having to dumb it down for noobs.
You are going to F* yourself out of depth and you're conciously doing it.
Lemme just name a few games with sweeter than life physics/inertia/movement:
Tribes 1
Descent
MotorCross Madness 1 (it's just like t1 skiing, if anyone ever played it)
And this stupid, but fun game: Lunar Lander
You guys ever played those games? You know that feeling of "natural inertia" that they all have?? That's what this new game is looking like it lacks.
Again - You are conciously DUMBING DOWN A PHYSICS MODEL and it will bite you in the ass because you are sacrificing DEPTH.
In any world sport, noobies play with the same equipment and on the same playing field as the pros and millions of new players are attracted to these sports every year. If you think that things need to be "dumbed down" and more "newbie friendly", then you are breaking the most proven recipe out there. Leave the playing field with maximum depth!!
Don't dumb it down.
People want a challenge and that's what keeps them coming back!
Don't fudge this up, man.. You are conciously fudgeing with a proven recipe - that sports do not need to be dumbed down to cater to everyone.
It doesn't matter that the players are under the laws of physics, it's completely legal(in terms of physics) to stop a body in mid-air(Just add a force against direction of movement with force Speed * mass, and it stops the body dead, laws of physics don't care where the force came from ) So it's no use saying it's being handled by some physics engine under the newtonian laws because you can do anything just by adding forces.
) So it's no use saying it's being handled by some physics engine under the newtonian laws because you can do anything just by adding forces.Don't let the fact I'm registered as member confuse your little mind Skibbi9. If you ever posted on the ToB board of Tribesplayers I might have recognised you, but alas, I probably predate your T1 experience.Skibbi9 said:
I've played it consequently from dec 1998 until T2 beta and never really looked back. Did once though and still found it simple and still all you saw was chainwhoring or heavies moving and BTing at insane speeds. Skiing difficult in T1?!? Not for me anywayzz. I actually found MA's in T1 simpler than in T2. Same for classic. If anything I played T1 too much, there was a website that held all stats for playing time and I was wondering if I'd had any RL during that period
To be honest I actually liked T1 better when the jumping exploit wasn't invented yet and the jump.cs script didn't exist. I wonder who even remember those days... Gawd I'm getting old
With skiing the whole gamebalance changed and all the levels you now think are perfect for skiing in T1 were never meant for that to begin with. Of course I did enjoy the added fun in gameplay, but it also made the game simpler for me. But that's all beside whatever point. People are allowed their preferences and I don't care if someone likes T1 better. I sure as hell liked it a lot for a very long time so there must have been something really appealing for me in it, otherwise I wouldn't have played it that much. That I like something else more now is irrelevant since I'm looking forward to the new challenge of T:V in whatever form it may come. The worst can be I won't like it a lot and that's not a big life or dead thing anyway.
I'm just hoping I'll like it when I'll play it and have another couple of years galloping around in the starsiege universe I call home
Yes, they are. No new player is going to learn how to do half-decent platform jumps within 2 minutes - they play the trial and error game before they see any even miniscule rises in the skill curve. If you don't believe this, it's probably because you look back on your experience as a newb (if you even remember) and overestimate your ability. I know I'm not. I've introduced many a friend to the game and seen firsthand just how difficult the learning curve is in T1 compared to other games today.
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Mangle-Me-Elmo
Veteran XX
you guys all know damn well that they know they allready have our money so what do they care what we think
its been made abundantly clear that its their game and they'll do with it whatever they please
its been made abundantly clear that its their game and they'll do with it whatever they please