News: TribalWar Vengeance Movie

Zoolooman said:
They did not remove the CC.

Edit: I mean, they have a CC in the game, brought up by the command map key.
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I could've sworn they said they removed it in that interview with KP (TV on the projection screen...)?
 
experimental said:
guess what guys, gravity is 14.5 meters per second.

real life is 9.8 meters per second. unreal and quake are 9-10m/sec

we already have crazy high gravity, please stop and think what you really mean by 'gravity too low' so that we can actually do something about it, because we're not going to ship a game with gravity like you are playing on jupiter thanks.

(and for what its worth, i'm sure t1 gravity is in the 9-10meters per second range, but feel free to correct me on this)
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Is the jet power equivalent to the T1 jet force then?

The one instance that really emphasized this 'lack of gravity' was when Colosus shot the enemy flag carrier as he was entering his base. The Disk shot knocked the enemy down to ground level but he immediately jumped right back into the air and got some pretty good altitude. Seems like he didn't get penalized enough. It just looks like jump jet conservation isn't gonna do you much good, it also never looked like you could get a good prediction of where the enemy was going to land. The duels looked more spray and pray than I liked because of too much maneuverability.

It looked really really weird to me.
 
Zoolooman said:
It isn't that there isn't enough gravity. Watch the players, they fall incredibly fast when and if they fall.

I think that they have too much upward thrust though. They are going up so fast that they coast a little at the top of the jumpjet, causing them to peak out slowly compared to T1 and T2, giving the viewer a false sense of floatiness.

That's all I can tell from the video, but remember, I'm only posting an impression. I think the players--for one reason or another--aren't starting to fall fast enough, nor having enough trouble flying. When they finally fall, they're falling very, very quickly.

I could give better feedback if I could get my hands on the game and a short description of all the major factors that are tweaked to produce T:V's movement. In this regard, public testing should be very interesting.

Thanks for the reply to this thread experimental.
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yep. and we get to the crux of the matter - thanks for the explanation, because this hang time at the end of the thrust is just a result of being able to achieve vertical speed more easily via thrusting than in t1 (for all armors).

consider this, currently if you hold forward and thrust at the same time from standing still on the ground, you'll end up going about 45 degrees up. while in t1 you go pretty much flat for a good bit, then start arcing up a bit.

why did we do this instead? because it really REALLY freaks out new players, even worse is when you have to do platform jumps, and you thrust up first to get the height, then thrust forwards to go to the platform -- do it any other way in t1 and you wont make it.

you guys are so used to this, i understand how this change could be a bit of a shock - i even see why for veteran players, its actually better to have a flatter arc at times, because when you are going down and you want to adjust horizontally to hit the entry for a ski route, the last thing you want is for massive vertical thrust to be kicking in *slowing* you down.

my suspicion is that its this high vertical thrust while adjusting when travelling down is giving you this 'soupy' feel. and you know what, i agree with you, it annoys me too (personally), and i'm not even a tribes player.

but one thing it certainly isnt, is too low 'gravity'. so can we get this straight please, in the future *everybody* just tell us exactly what the negative effects you are experiencing are, without jumping to conclusions (although feel free to suggest them), and we'll see what we can do about it.
 
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Validuz said:
10.) The center piece on the grapping hook where the animation plays (the rotatin cetner part), looks like crap. It should look 3D, like the wires are actually rotating around and not just a cheap animation. Maybe it's a placeholder?

14.) The ragdoll physics need some work, imo. His body didn't fall like it should when he died and hit the wall/hill.
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Eh. In most games with ragdoll, the ragdoll never works perfectly, nor does it look that great. In UT2K4 for example, if the body hits the ground over a certain speed, it just clips right through the dirt and vanishes. In fact, to cover up the fact that their ragdoll sucks, the UT developers blow off limbs and let torsos and groins hit the ground.

As for the animated texture, I liked it, though I think it does look flat. Maybe it needs to be normal mapped? It seems it wasn't in the video, but that's hard to tell in the tiny window.

1.) Was I seeing things, or can you throw two hand(or more) nades at the same time?
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It seems they are just firing fast. He threw them sequentially. Watch the corner of the video. The nades have a reload time.

Edit: Nah. They said in several interviews afterwards that the IGN article was wrong. They said that the radar HUD makes it so that you don't have to enter the command map to get a short view of the map around you. The command map is still in the game though. That's been explicitly stated many times.
 
Zoolooman said:
It seems they are just firing fast. He threw them sequentially. Watch the corner of the video. The nades have a reload time.
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Not at the time I'm talking about... he throws two instantly. He goes from 3 nades to 1. Watch from 1:30 to 1:40 in the video. It happens right at 1:37.

Edit: Nah. They said in several interviews afterwards that the IGN article was wrong. They said that the radar HUD makes it so that you don't have to enter the command map to get a short view of the map around you. The command map is still in the game though. That's been explicitly stated many times.
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Ahhh, well.. my bad. I didn't know that they were wrong about that too :p
 
i thought that video looked pretty fudgeining solid for a pre-beta game


ok wtf

you can't say
F
U
C
K

on tw anymore?
 
Techno Beat said:
What I meant was is the gravity:jet ratio the same, but it seems you have already answered this.
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while its not quite this simple, in general you could say that the vertical acceleration from thrusting is generally more powerful than in T1.

our physics model is considerably more complex, which includes such things as ramping down the thrust force at high horizontal speeds (more t1 like), and even noob friendly force 'compression', which applies an exponential scale to the thrust power at low speeds (equivalent to a motorbike with high low end torque vs. say a two stroke engine that struggles below the powerband), the effect of this is to quickly get new players up to a basic speed when thrusting, rather than forcing them to crawl in the dirt like the bugs they are.

the general idea is that although they can quickly get up to speed (say 0-35kph is pretty zippy), then 35kph to say 50 or 60kph is moderate -- they cant really exceed this speed without using skiing because the thrusts become less effective at accelerating past this speed.

this is of course, an oversimplification - but please understand that we have to give new players something, because when you can focus test a group of people and they cant even hit a platform in t1 while they can make it easily in our game, you have to consider that maybe at this low end, we're doing something right...

now, to balance this extra power and maneuverability out over the beta period, vs. weapons that rely on predictable ballistic trajectories for skill based hits (not luck)

now there is the challenge. but its a challenge we are aware of, and have been preparing for for about 2 years now, so dont worry. we're absolutely not blind to this, and we'll do our best.
 
experimental said:
yep. and we get to the crux of the matter - thanks for the explanation, because this hang time at the end of the thrust is just a result of being able to achieve vertical speed more easily via thrusting than in t1 (for all armors).

consider this, currently if you hold forward and thrust at the same time from standing still on the ground, you'll end up going about 45 degrees up. while in t1 you go pretty much flat for a good bit, then start arcing up a bit.

why did we do this instead? because it really REALLY freaks out new players, even worse is when you have to do platform jumps, and you thrust up first to get the height, then thrust forwards to go to the platform -- do it any other way in t1 and you wont make it.

you guys are so used to this, i understand how this change could be a bit of a shock - i even see why for veteran players, its actually better to have a flatter arc at times, because when you are going down and you want to adjust horizontally to hit the entry for a ski route, the last thing you want is for massive vertical thrust to be kicking in *slowing* you down.

my suspicion is that its this high vertical thrust while adjusting when travelling down is giving you this 'soupy' feel. and you know what, i agree with you, it annoys me too (personally), and i'm not even a tribes player.

but one thing it certainly isnt, is too low 'gravity'. so can we get this straight please, in the future *everybody* just tell us exactly what the negative effects you are experiencing are, without jumping to conclusions (although feel free to suggest them), and we'll see what we can do about it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply. Again, this will be easiest to handle with a hands on experience (makes me wish I was at E3), but I'm willing to give it a go.

I think visually, I'm seeing players rocket upwards too easily. They regenerate a little energy, and then get a large aerial boost, minimizing their downtime, and causing them to be in the air constantly.

As a corrollary, the players are probably using this higher jetpack thrust to hover too easily. In T1 and T2, a player's ability to fly begins to "fail." He goes over his peak, and begins to drop. At this point, not even a full burn will reverse the player's fall. In the video, I'm watching players arrest the start of their drop, and maybe even gain some good height. In other words, the inevitability of the fall is being disrupted by the higher thrust of the jetpack. This contributes to a floaty feel, because it looks like players are having no problem maintaining their height.

Only when a player has really begun to fall (and there we see the gravity kick in to high speed) does he seem to reach inevitable touchdown. Unfortunately, instead of thumping hard against the ground and losing his momentum, he seems to bounce very slightly, maintaining some of his lost momentum. In other words, maybe the player is being punished less for landing badly, because of the bounce.

In addition, the air control seemed relatively extreme. There are several points where players turn around corners at a steady height. While this level of control is very pretty, it's also been (thanks to mods in T1 and T2) historically found to make it difficult to score hits.

Combine this with the lowered downtime and the loss of punishment, and players seem to be too free to move. The game theoretically loses much of its predictability, which is actually what T1 and T2 gameplay depended upon. In these older games, when a player lands, he is punished severely for landing, unless he lands into a ski.

If a player can get back off the ground into a high jump too quickly, and has so much air control, and can recover from his fall, then we've removed part of the predictable core.

Again, this is mostly assumption built up from observations and experience with T1 and T2 classic physics, so chalk anything incorrect in my post up to a lack of experience with T:V.

I might consider, from my distanced viewpoint, lowering the severe upwards thrust, causing a bad landing to stunt your movement (rather than bounce you), adjusting the lateral thrusting ability to give far less horizontal impulse, and maybe even lowering gravity a tiny bit after making those changes.

That's just a vague start. I can't do much better until beta. Good luck experimental. You ought to sit down with KP some day, and work completely on physics.

As a further note, I know this sounds really cruel to the newbies, but maybe some of the beneficial physics features for the new players should be reduced (or in extreme cases, removed, though I doubt this would possibly be necessary). For example, you mentioned this current horizontal movement is intuitive, while old Tribes lateral movement is not, or something along those lines. While this may be true, the gameplay effects of more powerful lateral movement are detriment. It basically makes careful player positioning less important, and it cuts down on the predictability of players.

One more thing. So called "noobification" (ugh I hate that term) or "easy acceleration while in low speeds" affects the vast majority of gameplay for everyone, because even the veterans spend much of their combat time at below 30 kph.

If this "predictability as an important gameplay element" is something you haven't heard, either ask KP (he'll know) or ask me to make a big post about it.

Edit: I apologize if any of this post was difficult to read or presumptuous. Blame it on the fact that I wrote it hours after I'd normally be asleep.
 
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experimental said:
no. why would it be? we are not copying tribes 1.
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And thank God for that! I love T1 and T2. But I am ready for something new. Something different. If you want the same as T1 & T2, then play T1 and T2. But, when you play T:V, enjoy it for its differences, and not its simularities. Personally, I am so excited by what I see, I can't wait to play it.

I just don't see how we can judge a game by just looking at a teaser vid. It is a whole lot different when you are at the controls. So I will refrain from judgement on how responsive I think the game is, until I play it.

In my opinion, I like the up and down rolling hills feel to the jetting and skiing. Watching the vid in full screen mode, my stomach actually dropped durring the skiing sequence (the rollercoaster feeling). These hills weren't that big too. The only time I have that sensation in T2 is on Dangerous Crossing, skiing down the big mountain.

As for the trails, one of my biggest complaints about T2 is the lack of depth perception. There's nothing worse than having the height advantage on a target only to miss wide right, because you misjudged how far the target was from you. I think the trails will definately help with depth perception.

Lastly, I really dig the Spinfusors animation. That rocks! When your clip is empty, you pull it out and shake it like, man im out of friggin ammo.

Hurry up and release the demo please, I am peeing my pants with anticipation!!!

|TIA|FreshMeat
 
Ladies and gamers... this vid, even with it's flaws, makes me salivate like I've been fasting for about ... mmm... 4 years without my 'steak', and I've suddenly been presented with a banquet.

It will be my last FPS for a long, long time.
 
Zoolooman said:
Thank you for the reply. Again, this will be easiest to handle with a hands on experience (makes me wish I was at E3), but I'm willing to give it a go.

I think visually, I'm seeing players rocket upwards too easily. They regenerate a little energy, and then get a large aerial boost, minimizing their downtime, and causing them to be in the air constantly.

As a corrollary, the players are probably using this higher jetpack thrust to hover too easily. In T1 and T2, a player's ability to fly begins to "fail." He goes over his peak, and begins to drop. At this point, not even a full burn will reverse the player's fall. In the video, I'm watching players arrest the start of their drop, and maybe even gain some good height. In other words, the inevitability of the fall is being disrupted by the higher thrust of the jetpack. This contributes to a floaty feel, because it looks like players are having no problem maintaining their height.

Only when a player has really begun to fall (and there we see the gravity kick in to high speed) does he seem to reach inevitable touchdown. Unfortunately, instead of thumping hard against the ground and losing his momentum, he seems to bounce very slightly, maintaining some of his lost momentum. In other words, maybe the player is being punished less for landing badly, because of the bounce.

In addition, the air control seemed relatively extreme. There are several points where players turn around corners at a steady height. While this level of control is very pretty, it's also been (thanks to mods in T1 and T2) historically found to make it difficult to score hits.

Combine this with the lowered downtime and the loss of punishment, and players seem to be too free to move. The game theoretically loses much of its predictability, which is actually what T1 and T2 gameplay depended upon. In these older games, when a player lands, he is punished severely for landing, unless he lands into a ski.

If a player can get back off the ground into a high jump too quickly, and has so much air control, and can recover from his fall, then we've removed part of the predictable core.

Again, this is mostly assumption built up from observations and experience with T1 and T2 classic physics, so chalk anything incorrect in my post up to a lack of experience with T:V.

I might consider, from my distanced viewpoint, lowering the severe upwards thrust, causing a bad landing to stunt your movement (rather than bounce you), adjusting the lateral thrusting ability to give far less horizontal impulse, and maybe even lowering gravity a tiny bit after making those changes.

That's just a vague start. I can't do much better until beta. Good luck experimental. You ought to sit down with KP some day, and work completely on physics.

As a further note, I know this sounds really cruel to the newbies, but maybe some of the beneficial physics features for the new players should be reduced (or in extreme cases, removed, though I doubt this would possibly be necessary). For example, you mentioned this current horizontal movement is intuitive, while old Tribes lateral movement is not, or something along those lines. While this may be true, the gameplay effects of more powerful lateral movement are detriment. It basically makes careful player positioning less important, and it cuts down on the predictability of players.

One more thing. So called "noobification" (ugh I hate that term) or "easy acceleration while in low speeds" affects the vast majority of gameplay for everyone, because even the veterans spend much of their combat time at below 30 kph.

If this "predictability as an important gameplay element" is something you haven't heard, either ask KP (he'll know) or ask me to make a big post about it.

Edit: I apologize if any of this post was difficult to read or presumptuous. Blame it on the fact that I wrote it hours after I'd normally be asleep.
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I think T:V will become more predictable the more you play it. Even though the movement is different, we will all get used to it, be able to adjust to it, and even compensate our targeting tactics. I don't think MA's are going to be any hard to hit than T1 or T2. In the vid you see the guy MA his oponenet several times. What I did notice, was that the Sniper Rifle was more challenging to aim. Which it should be, because sniping in real like is not just a point and click thing. It takes real skill, as it should in T:V.

Why does everyone want a game just like T1 and T2? All I hear are references to how the physics seem to lack in T:V. Personally I think the physics in T1, T2 and T2 Classic all suck. In T1, they are too fast, T2 Base they are too slow and in T2 Classic, well you drop like a rock, and it takes forever to get off the ground, and once you get moving, you can't stop or control your player in flight. Did I mention dropping like faster than a rock? As they look right now, I think the physics in T:V look much better. Also, I think we are not used to the Jet pack in T:V because it has two modes, Passive and Active. So even though you it is not activated in decent, it is still passively working...thus giving the appearence that movement is quick.

Just my .02

|TIA|FreshMeat
 
If you don't even like it experimental, and as you said no 'vets' will like it, then why not just make it an option in game, giving players the choice of if jets will thrust forward/side to side/backwards when pressing the movement keys. Ie
<jpr333> why dont they leave it as it is, or have an option to change it
<jpr333> right now it is controlled by pressing froward yeah in t2?
<jpr333> you will thrust forward
<jpr333> why don't they just make it an option in game
<jpr333> as in 'jet thrust always upwards (recommended for new players)' on
<angellace> forward+jet should be shallow arc
<angellace> just jet should be up fast
<jpr333> indeed
<jpr333> i think i will convey my thoughts on tw

How hard could that be :/
 
I don't want the game to be like T1 or T2. I'm simply noting that high lateral movement makes players inherently less predictable, and since I'm advocating a level of predictability, I conclude that too much lateral movement and too little ground tmie is a bad thing. This is my opinion, or hypothesis if you like, and not my subterfugous attempt to remake T1 or T2.
 
Zoolooman said:
If this "predictability as an important gameplay element" is something you haven't heard, either ask KP (he'll know) or ask me to make a big post about it.

Edit: I apologize if any of this post was difficult to read or presumptuous. Blame it on the fact that I wrote it hours after I'd normally be asleep.
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not at all. thanks for the very well thought out and written post. we are very aware of the ballistic predictability based gameplay of t1 via KP of course.

to counter your arguments consider the frustraction of new players, they cant easily gain height, they intuitively combine forward and thrust and expect 45degrees instead of a flat thrust curve, and they want to be able to correct in the air (and this makes dodging possible) because they suck.

imo we have to let people move around, but punish them (via energy use) for needing to correct, hence the new players still have an edge over them. we're not there yet, but we're working hard on it -- its fair to say that our current build is probably more newbie friendly (but not 'noobified' really) than veteran friendly, and we're working on this.

consider the new player that jets to reach a platform, but underestimates, they want to correct. they get annoyed if they cant. -- with our physics system, the new player can jet to the platform, mess it up in a minor way, and still have enough thrust (if they spend all their energy) to correct and hit the platform.

now to allow for this level of forgiveness at low end movement, and 'compression' of thrust boost to quickly get new players up to 35kph when thrusting (which is afterall, just running speed), without toasting it for vets, thats our challenge.

so let us know if you have any ideas how we can do both, because honestly, the extra maneuverability and thrust power at low end is there for a reason, and i'd be sad to see it nerfed - because at the end of the day, this is what will attract new players to the game.
 
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