[TR2] Team Rabbit 2 has left the building...
- Thread starter mojotooth
- Start date
Digital Night
Veteran X
Funkalicious said:
I think Funk really shed light on my biggest beef with TR2. It was a great game, it was a great distraction from CTF. But unlike mods like Arena, Rabbit or Siege which allow you to practice elements of CTF, TR2 steps all over your CTF instincts. You are encouraged to pass the flag, kill yourself, respawn, able to stop instantly, speed up in the water, bounce off the oob grid, use one weapon set and you are targetting larger models than normal.
As if we didn't need to already practice this game enough for a CTF or Arena match, it was actually better to not play any other T2 mod for days before a TR2 match in addition to just warming up. I can't tell you how many times I expect to beacon stop or speed up by taking a quick dip in the water when playing CTF or Siege in a pub... and I look ridiculous for it.
The best way for TR3 to succeed to to be both physics-wise and mentally similar to whatever gameplay we get for CTF in T3. Tribes does a great job of using mods as a way to benefit smaller aspect of its main purpose - multiplayer CTF. Arena and Duel mods focus on personal skill, Rabbit was designed for cappers to dodge and ski better, and even Siege does its part to encourage coordination.
For TR3 to be a success it can't step away from the mold that the rest of the game is created in. However both Classic and TR2 offer such great gameplay that they deserve to evolve together. So lets see if I can pound out some initial ideas.
- Models for each game type need to be the same size. Drop the lights down to size in TR3, the mediums a decent size, and the heavies should be damn big anyways. Maybe not the size of a goalie, but considerably bigger than they are now.
- Flag passing needs to be very similar if not the same for both. Obviously this tones down the amount you can hurl the flag in TR3 but I immediately got sick of just lofting the flag in the air and having someone kick it out of the clear blue sky sending the flag flying much too fast for a goalie to stop (due to position or collision detection). I would like to see flag passing beefed up for CTF because it could be a nice addition to gameplay if designed correctly. The main differences between flag passing in CTF and TR3 would have to be the scale of the playing field. The less time a player has to learn, or relearn, passing a flag each time they play the better.
- Obsticles and objects in the playing field need to react the same way for both gametypes. Water should slow you down, not launch you into the sky. I would love to see tubes, ramps and such included in some CTF maps as well.
- Despite our love for beacons and beacon hanging from way back to T1 days, these can't be the same item. The dead stop from TR2 should either be replaced by another item or be removed completely. Beacons are markers, not magical physics exploitation devices.
- Landscapes need to be radically different. TR2 should be played in an arena and CTF in an expansive world.
Those are just my initial thoughts. Feel free to bash them all you want but I feel strongly that one of the strong reasons TR2 died early was the leap in physics and mindset from CTF. For TR3 to succeed it needs to be launced along with CTF and ideas from both incorporated to make the gameplay of TR3 just a facet of CTF played in a smaller area and emphasising speed, aim and passing characteristics of CTF.
I think TR2 should have moved away from points and towards goals. In Hockey the object is to score, but passing effectivly increases chances to score.
They Should of reduced the size of the and maybe made the flag a bit smaller and set the focus on scoring a goal rather then making amazinf passes only to get jewed out of the jackpot.
They Should of reduced the size of the and maybe made the flag a bit smaller and set the focus on scoring a goal rather then making amazinf passes only to get jewed out of the jackpot.
Digital Night
Veteran X
Wow, way to flame AND be wrong.TeckMan said:
Maybe you should see how I referenced them before you type up such a witty reply. In TR2 they do bring you do a dead stop and yes I did forget to add the part about launching you into the air. I'm sorry for thinking that someone of your infinite knowledge would have inferred that point.
And I seem to have referenced beacon hanging, you know, from way way back in tribes 1 exploit land. Didn't get that one either, I'm sorry, that was a long time ago.
STFU and learn what the hell you are talking about before you go shooting your mouth off. I tried to bring up a lot of points regarding the future of tribes and team rabbit. If you have a nit-pick or a correction I would hope you learn to do it more cordially and not in the juvenile manner in which you chose.
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KineticPoet
Veteran X
I've been working on Tribes: Vengeance for about a year now. This means that my T:V work overlapped with my TR2 work. Busy times. Up until the T2 re-release I dumped nearly all of my time into TR2, but shortly thereafter I had to shift the scales and focus on T:V instead. I also had to figure out the best way to move to the other side of the world, where I now live.
It's a bit of a lame excuse. In retrospect, I wish I had spent more time with TR2 post-release, or at the very least contacted someone like mojotooth right away to hand over its design and development. This is a lesson I have learned.
I want you to know that I tracked all the great discussions...the creativity vs. goals debates, the goalie spamming wars, the exploits, etc. The Irrational team watched the final TR2 match on T2TV and enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm impressed how you all evolved the game despite the absence of me, AO, daunt, illy, Nef, and numerous other people who originally contributed to it. Yeah, it sucked that we didn't even play the game we made...but as Scott said, we each had to move on for our own reasons. =( It also sucked that we couldn't have an open beta...such is the disadvantage of using bloated bandwidth-eating files that changed multiple times daily. Our apologies.
We suspected from the beginning that TR2 would have limited appeal...this was a known risk, which is why you'll be hard pressed to find a post by me that really hypes TR2. It's not really a game for the masses, at least not without some key changes, and that's completely ok in my mind. That's what mods are for--experimentation, pushing the limits, exploring new possibilities. As for the future of TR2...that's up to you guys now. I'm fully focused on T:V at the moment.
There is room in T:V to experiment with TR2-style modes of play, that much is certain. So those of you who enjoyed playing a game focused on movement, positioning, goal-scoring, creative passing or all of those things--well, hopefully you won't be disappointed. We aim to make a good Tribes game first and foremost, but part of that can and will involve the spirit of TR2,
KP
It's a bit of a lame excuse. In retrospect, I wish I had spent more time with TR2 post-release, or at the very least contacted someone like mojotooth right away to hand over its design and development. This is a lesson I have learned.
I want you to know that I tracked all the great discussions...the creativity vs. goals debates, the goalie spamming wars, the exploits, etc. The Irrational team watched the final TR2 match on T2TV and enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm impressed how you all evolved the game despite the absence of me, AO, daunt, illy, Nef, and numerous other people who originally contributed to it. Yeah, it sucked that we didn't even play the game we made...but as Scott said, we each had to move on for our own reasons. =( It also sucked that we couldn't have an open beta...such is the disadvantage of using bloated bandwidth-eating files that changed multiple times daily. Our apologies.
We suspected from the beginning that TR2 would have limited appeal...this was a known risk, which is why you'll be hard pressed to find a post by me that really hypes TR2. It's not really a game for the masses, at least not without some key changes, and that's completely ok in my mind. That's what mods are for--experimentation, pushing the limits, exploring new possibilities. As for the future of TR2...that's up to you guys now. I'm fully focused on T:V at the moment.
There is room in T:V to experiment with TR2-style modes of play, that much is certain. So those of you who enjoyed playing a game focused on movement, positioning, goal-scoring, creative passing or all of those things--well, hopefully you won't be disappointed. We aim to make a good Tribes game first and foremost, but part of that can and will involve the spirit of TR2,
KP
x a bajillionthanks for the reply kp.
I think we're all in agreement in our thanks for tr2.
However, realizing that you can't give the time to actually code things, would be willing to sit down in a chat, or write out your positions on the current tr2 situation.
There are people who are willing to code this, and try to fix TR2, we just need a 'leader' to lay down the law. Being as you are the creator, i think your input on the matter would really help in the resurrection of tr2.
regardless or not if you are able to do this, thanks again.
I think we're all in agreement in our thanks for tr2.
However, realizing that you can't give the time to actually code things, would be willing to sit down in a chat, or write out your positions on the current tr2 situation.
There are people who are willing to code this, and try to fix TR2, we just need a 'leader' to lay down the law. Being as you are the creator, i think your input on the matter would really help in the resurrection of tr2.
regardless or not if you are able to do this, thanks again.
KineticPoet
Veteran X
Hey there MB, good to see you around.
I'm not sure I'd be the best leader for TR2 at this point. Leaders need to devote time on an ongoing basis, and my plate is pretty full as it is.
I can offer some comments though, and I'd gladly participate in occasional discussions. Here are a few fun, potentially drastic things that could be tried in TR2:
- Break the game into two: one focused on scoring goals, the other focused on creative passing. In the former case, 1 point per goal. In the latter case, re-work the scoring system to prevent exploitation, more appropriately reward creativity, and address any other issues. I'm not sure which of these 2 games would be more fun...personally I think I'd enjoy both of them.
- Remove automatic role-switching and put inventory stations in the spawn huts. Crazy, no?
- For the goal-scoring game, maybe experiment with a shorter flag-throwing distance and Classic-esque physics that have been scaled to accommodate TR2's models, aiming for a slightly faster, lower game.
Those are off the top of my head, but I've thought about these and other changes in the past and I still think they would be interesting experiments if nothing else,
KP
I'm not sure I'd be the best leader for TR2 at this point. Leaders need to devote time on an ongoing basis, and my plate is pretty full as it is.
I can offer some comments though, and I'd gladly participate in occasional discussions. Here are a few fun, potentially drastic things that could be tried in TR2:
- Break the game into two: one focused on scoring goals, the other focused on creative passing. In the former case, 1 point per goal. In the latter case, re-work the scoring system to prevent exploitation, more appropriately reward creativity, and address any other issues. I'm not sure which of these 2 games would be more fun...personally I think I'd enjoy both of them.
- Remove automatic role-switching and put inventory stations in the spawn huts. Crazy, no?
- For the goal-scoring game, maybe experiment with a shorter flag-throwing distance and Classic-esque physics that have been scaled to accommodate TR2's models, aiming for a slightly faster, lower game.
Those are off the top of my head, but I've thought about these and other changes in the past and I still think they would be interesting experiments if nothing else,
KP
Don't give up on TR. Its ownage =).
TR could meaningfully broaden T:V's appeal if marketed well before and during the release. I believe it attracts a similar, but different audience than CTF. One critical success factor for TR3 will be the establishment of a large installed base of players/teams quickly at release (has to be at release or it will never take off). This will require a focused marketing effort, probably in conjunction with TWL and other league/ladder systems. CTF will take off all by itself given the already significant installed base of players.
3 quick points:
1. Pls don't nerf the flag throwing. I had mad fun throwing the flag way high all the way across the map.
2. Classic/T1 physics are fine for TR. I honestly think CTF could benefit from emulating some TR2 physics modifications. Specifically, I really like TR2's bouncy water. Also, I think beacon stopping could add an interesting dimension to CTF - especially if coupled with some of the new movement ideas (grapple, glide pack, dive pack).
3. Don't give up on an "integrated" game regarding passing and goal shooting. Breaking the two approaches into separate games is clean, but I think ultimately unnecessary provided the integrated system is easily understood and closely monitored by the DEV's at release. Further, and perhaps more importantly, breaking the game in half splits a nascent community; a potentially fatal move for a network game.
While the scoring system needs modification, I think the majority of the dissatisfaction with TR2's scoring system was rooted in the fact that it wasn't well understood until very, very late in the game's life (even then there was some confusion).
The passing matrix was made intelligible by Silverspirit's very cool graphic equalizer hud and thus, well accepted. I think similar huds for creativity and skill points (e.g. for consecutive high point passes) would go a long way.
Key take away: release TR3 with reasonable supervision and the expectation that it could evolve and promote it well at release.
TR could meaningfully broaden T:V's appeal if marketed well before and during the release. I believe it attracts a similar, but different audience than CTF. One critical success factor for TR3 will be the establishment of a large installed base of players/teams quickly at release (has to be at release or it will never take off). This will require a focused marketing effort, probably in conjunction with TWL and other league/ladder systems. CTF will take off all by itself given the already significant installed base of players.
3 quick points:
1. Pls don't nerf the flag throwing. I had mad fun throwing the flag way high all the way across the map.
2. Classic/T1 physics are fine for TR. I honestly think CTF could benefit from emulating some TR2 physics modifications. Specifically, I really like TR2's bouncy water. Also, I think beacon stopping could add an interesting dimension to CTF - especially if coupled with some of the new movement ideas (grapple, glide pack, dive pack).
3. Don't give up on an "integrated" game regarding passing and goal shooting. Breaking the two approaches into separate games is clean, but I think ultimately unnecessary provided the integrated system is easily understood and closely monitored by the DEV's at release. Further, and perhaps more importantly, breaking the game in half splits a nascent community; a potentially fatal move for a network game.
While the scoring system needs modification, I think the majority of the dissatisfaction with TR2's scoring system was rooted in the fact that it wasn't well understood until very, very late in the game's life (even then there was some confusion).
The passing matrix was made intelligible by Silverspirit's very cool graphic equalizer hud and thus, well accepted. I think similar huds for creativity and skill points (e.g. for consecutive high point passes) would go a long way.
Key take away: release TR3 with reasonable supervision and the expectation that it could evolve and promote it well at release.
My point is we wouldn't have to be :/.
The Tribes community rarely agrees about everything all at 1x. On some things, we will never agree "as a community." We argue incessantly, but still manage to come together and have fun.
TR2's passing/goals split killed the REMAINING community (very small relative to the potential community) because there wasn't a good vehicle (i.e. paid) to experiment and quickly implement changes. The community response was slow in coming (no fault to any player/volunteer) and wasn't big enough (again, no fault of any volunteer/player). GPA was a massive volunteer effort as was bug squashing. Asking the same volunteers to bust their hump over scoring just wasn't realistic.
People tend to be reasonable if they feel like their concerns are at least being half-way listened to/considered/implemented. Look at how mant of us stuck with T2 despite MASSIVE problems (I know you couldn't. I also know that not being able to REALLY pissed you off <3.)! Nobody felt "consulted" in TR2 so many in the "hard core" community took extremely dogmatic positions (i.e. ONLY goals or ONLY passing) and the game imploded.
With some "supervision" from an "enlightened" DEV team, I'm sure that a solution that appealed to both groups would have emerged - even Mr. Wulfey enjoyed kicking some ass with creativity provided we also scored goals =).
P.S. Wulf you going to UVA? I may actually register, pay my $$$ AND show this year =) [sory Boner/Bounty =)]. We'll see.
The Tribes community rarely agrees about everything all at 1x. On some things, we will never agree "as a community." We argue incessantly, but still manage to come together and have fun.
TR2's passing/goals split killed the REMAINING community (very small relative to the potential community) because there wasn't a good vehicle (i.e. paid) to experiment and quickly implement changes. The community response was slow in coming (no fault to any player/volunteer) and wasn't big enough (again, no fault of any volunteer/player). GPA was a massive volunteer effort as was bug squashing. Asking the same volunteers to bust their hump over scoring just wasn't realistic.
People tend to be reasonable if they feel like their concerns are at least being half-way listened to/considered/implemented. Look at how mant of us stuck with T2 despite MASSIVE problems (I know you couldn't. I also know that not being able to REALLY pissed you off <3.)! Nobody felt "consulted" in TR2 so many in the "hard core" community took extremely dogmatic positions (i.e. ONLY goals or ONLY passing) and the game imploded.
With some "supervision" from an "enlightened" DEV team, I'm sure that a solution that appealed to both groups would have emerged - even Mr. Wulfey enjoyed kicking some ass with creativity provided we also scored goals =).
P.S. Wulf you going to UVA? I may actually register, pay my $$$ AND show this year =) [sory Boner/Bounty =)]. We'll see.
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I'm going to try to make UVA bro, alot depends on what other plans we have this summer, my work, and when they're planning on having it. I've said I'd try before and not been able to, and I've had Rec, Core, Ter and old skul giving me hell for not making it, hehe.
I'll certainly try, I don't know how many other chances I'll have to meet you guys.
I'll certainly try, I don't know how many other chances I'll have to meet you guys.
I would love to see a TR3. I've always considered TR2 to be a breath of fresh air while taking a break from playing CTF. Since I always play HO in CTF, it's nice to play TR2 and run around in light armor, making outstanding passes and crazy catches. Plus, I'm still amused by the darn animal sounds. LOL.
I still believe that a decaying jackpot would help even the game out as far as passing and scoring are concerned. Players can still make incredible passes to build the jackpot but since the jackpot slowly decreases, the sense of urgency to score would increase as well. If the decay rate increased as the jackpot increased, pulling off a really high jackpot would be quite the accomplishment.
I've always liked the idea of a decaying jackpot since it would promote teamwork, successful passing and, ultimately, scoring.
I still believe that a decaying jackpot would help even the game out as far as passing and scoring are concerned. Players can still make incredible passes to build the jackpot but since the jackpot slowly decreases, the sense of urgency to score would increase as well. If the decay rate increased as the jackpot increased, pulling off a really high jackpot would be quite the accomplishment.
I've always liked the idea of a decaying jackpot since it would promote teamwork, successful passing and, ultimately, scoring.
KineticPoet said:
Thanks for being candid KP. Here's one thing to consider.
You're absolutely right that TR2 is a niche project, something that a relatively few people were absolutely passionate about. And those types of games need to be enabled in T:V, now more than ever.
As the architecture of multiplayer gaming in T:V takes shape, just keep in mind the obstacles that you faced as a mod programmer that was pushing the limits of the core game. Some of them were probably very similar to the obstacles hit by ZOD/z0dd during the evolution of Classic, but I'm sure you faced many unique obstacles as well.
Keep these obstacles in mind and eliminate them or at least give the modders the power to eliminate them. Then TR3 or whatever weird visions people have for the next big niche mod for T:V can take shape and you can just watch the creative juices flowing.
I think T2 is the biggest proof ever that sometimes the gaming community can make a game that far exceeds what the game's design team ever anticipated. It would be a shame for the community not to have that power.