[TR2] Team Rabbit 2 has left the building...
- Thread starter mojotooth
- Start date
I've said it once and i will say it again, TR2 is the best, most fun game/mod i have played.
People say that it sucked because there were two different playing styles. As people have already pointed out the SB vs MHC match. I know someone posted my demo of gods rift, and i know a lot of time i just kinda stood around. (it was boring). But on skinny dip when they were scoring goals and we were scoring goals and passing it was fun.
The reason for the "lame tactics" which weren't really lame at all considering the circumstances of the map and opposing team was because we knew we were at a disadvantage on Gods Rift against mhc. We did what we thought we had to do to gain some points and win. This is the purpose of all sports. In football people have scouts that study formations and plays, and then try to think of a counter, if you considor this lame, then learn to play sports.
I hope that TR2 will live on and earn some respect in T3 if it is even added to T3.
I know i had a lot of fun playing tr2 with the result of my GPA dropping.
but i had a lot of fun.
People say that it sucked because there were two different playing styles. As people have already pointed out the SB vs MHC match. I know someone posted my demo of gods rift, and i know a lot of time i just kinda stood around. (it was boring). But on skinny dip when they were scoring goals and we were scoring goals and passing it was fun.
The reason for the "lame tactics" which weren't really lame at all considering the circumstances of the map and opposing team was because we knew we were at a disadvantage on Gods Rift against mhc. We did what we thought we had to do to gain some points and win. This is the purpose of all sports. In football people have scouts that study formations and plays, and then try to think of a counter, if you considor this lame, then learn to play sports.
I hope that TR2 will live on and earn some respect in T3 if it is even added to T3.
I know i had a lot of fun playing tr2 with the result of my GPA dropping.
but i had a lot of fun.Good job by Flatty summing up most of the list that I would have created had I not completely forgotten about the existence of this thread.
A couple things that I would add to the list, or re-emphasize with comment:
- Codality isn't the only entity that stopped supporting TR2 after release. Sierra also vanished from the scene. They hyped up TR2 quite a bit before the T2 re-release, then (it seemed to me) like they were distancing themselves. Perhaps that's because they had plans for KP and knew he wouldn't be able to support TR2. I dunno. In my perception, Sierra really had no interest in whether or not TR2 continued to be played.
- Centralized community building came very late in the life of the game. For Classic, the CTF community was already there and things just fit right in to the normal infrastructure. The TR2 community, however, was marginalized by closed-minded CTF players. As TR2 had no place else to go, the TWL teams and some miscellaneous pub folks accumulated in the TWL ladder forum. If you Google on "Team Rabbit 2" you will find the fossilized remains of many teams across Europe and Oceania who would have been alienated by this because they weren't benefitted by the North American TWL TR2 ladder. The creation and release of TR2-Central probably would have alleviated this problem had it been available during the formative days, rather than as a desperate attempt to extend the lifespan of the game.
- One thing Golgac touched on: the creators and beta team for TR2 just didn't do a good job of realistically testing the game. Here's why I say that. Think of the first demo of TR2 that we saw. It was several of the "upper-class" T2 players flying around on Crater71, generally making nice passes and scoring pretty goals. As something that was put forth to be the model for TR2 gameplay, this set us up for a completely different experience from the one that would work in competitive play. As competition evolved, it was apparent that the beta team either had never considered the real direction that TR2 would take, or perhaps they saw it as a problem with no reasonable fixes. It's worth considering that taking a (presumably) highly-skilled, exclusive group of people and foisting upon them a brand new gametype was probably not the way to playtest this game.
And to briefly re-iterate the points that Flatty made that I mentally put a ! next to:
- Many players were attracted to TR2 because of its aesthetic qualities, and then were disenchanted by the fact that competitive play frequently discouraged that style.
- Arguments over the relative worth of "hockey" vs "ice dancing" or whatever terms you apply, were more harmful than beneficial to the community. Neither side could win the argument because the real problem was that the divide existed in the first place. This was an issue that should ideally have been resolved during game design. Especially since developer support vanished during the most critical phase of gameplay evolution, the gametype was doomed to have this rift for all time.
- Artificial pubbing rules designed to satisfy the players that preferred one gametype over another were extremely frustrating and alienating to most new players. Although a conscious and well-intended effort to open up the game to new players occurred, the damage had already been done for the most part.
A couple things that I would add to the list, or re-emphasize with comment:
- Codality isn't the only entity that stopped supporting TR2 after release. Sierra also vanished from the scene. They hyped up TR2 quite a bit before the T2 re-release, then (it seemed to me) like they were distancing themselves. Perhaps that's because they had plans for KP and knew he wouldn't be able to support TR2. I dunno. In my perception, Sierra really had no interest in whether or not TR2 continued to be played.
- Centralized community building came very late in the life of the game. For Classic, the CTF community was already there and things just fit right in to the normal infrastructure. The TR2 community, however, was marginalized by closed-minded CTF players. As TR2 had no place else to go, the TWL teams and some miscellaneous pub folks accumulated in the TWL ladder forum. If you Google on "Team Rabbit 2" you will find the fossilized remains of many teams across Europe and Oceania who would have been alienated by this because they weren't benefitted by the North American TWL TR2 ladder. The creation and release of TR2-Central probably would have alleviated this problem had it been available during the formative days, rather than as a desperate attempt to extend the lifespan of the game.
- One thing Golgac touched on: the creators and beta team for TR2 just didn't do a good job of realistically testing the game. Here's why I say that. Think of the first demo of TR2 that we saw. It was several of the "upper-class" T2 players flying around on Crater71, generally making nice passes and scoring pretty goals. As something that was put forth to be the model for TR2 gameplay, this set us up for a completely different experience from the one that would work in competitive play. As competition evolved, it was apparent that the beta team either had never considered the real direction that TR2 would take, or perhaps they saw it as a problem with no reasonable fixes. It's worth considering that taking a (presumably) highly-skilled, exclusive group of people and foisting upon them a brand new gametype was probably not the way to playtest this game.
And to briefly re-iterate the points that Flatty made that I mentally put a ! next to:
- Many players were attracted to TR2 because of its aesthetic qualities, and then were disenchanted by the fact that competitive play frequently discouraged that style.
- Arguments over the relative worth of "hockey" vs "ice dancing" or whatever terms you apply, were more harmful than beneficial to the community. Neither side could win the argument because the real problem was that the divide existed in the first place. This was an issue that should ideally have been resolved during game design. Especially since developer support vanished during the most critical phase of gameplay evolution, the gametype was doomed to have this rift for all time.
- Artificial pubbing rules designed to satisfy the players that preferred one gametype over another were extremely frustrating and alienating to most new players. Although a conscious and well-intended effort to open up the game to new players occurred, the damage had already been done for the most part.
S
Siron
Guest
Thrax Panda said:
I'm a forum whore and a pubber by nature. I saw a few posts on tr2, about all these crazy "style rules", and I was clueless. Tr2, to me until now, was about spinning around as you caught the flag, then running over and scoring a goal.
I've never been much good throwing or receiving mid air flag tosses, so I just stayed clear.
That's the thing that makes tr2 quite exceptional. Mid air flag tosses are the bread and butter of the game. I'll tell you that only 20-35% of the tribesplayers are any good at that, most of us couldn't throw well or even pick up to save the map.
We may be good diskers, chain whores, gren, md, etc. but we're no good with the flag. We usually stay clear, hd or ho or distracting. Shooting others and killing them and defending our base or destroying theirs is what's fun.
The closest I'll ever get to a flag is hof'ing it.
I've never been much good throwing or receiving mid air flag tosses, so I just stayed clear.
That's the thing that makes tr2 quite exceptional. Mid air flag tosses are the bread and butter of the game. I'll tell you that only 20-35% of the tribesplayers are any good at that, most of us couldn't throw well or even pick up to save the map.
We may be good diskers, chain whores, gren, md, etc. but we're no good with the flag. We usually stay clear, hd or ho or distracting. Shooting others and killing them and defending our base or destroying theirs is what's fun.
The closest I'll ever get to a flag is hof'ing it.
TheGhost said:...bad pubs make it go sour, if public play isn't any good, competitive play will only keep it going so long
My team didn't play TR2 so all I had were teh pubs. It was great fun at first till the elitist attitudes set in.
half the sky said:You're brilliant!
My team didn't play TR2 so all I had were teh pubs. It was great fun at first till the elitist attitudes set in.
In hindsite this was probably the single biggest reason for the demise of tr2 pub play. While teams like mHc were showing us just how far tr2 could go (which was cool) some of the members were basically fucktards and absolutely no fun to pub with (in the infancy of tr2).
A
Alexander
Guest
The vast majority of people held/hold CTF as their priority. The gameplay of tr2 has absolutely no benefit to a CTF player in terms of the skillset. None of the physics transfer, and the goals of the gametype are completely different.
What really killed tr2, I believe, was the failure to deliver the high flying speeds. We were told that this was the gametype for the speed lunatics, and when it finally came out, it was the floatiest piece of shit I'd ever played. It's wasn't very fast compared to classic.
And when teams started using creativity exploits instead of passing, it completely sucked out the fun.
What really killed tr2, I believe, was the failure to deliver the high flying speeds. We were told that this was the gametype for the speed lunatics, and when it finally came out, it was the floatiest piece of shit I'd ever played. It's wasn't very fast compared to classic.
And when teams started using creativity exploits instead of passing, it completely sucked out the fun.
Funkalicious
Veteran X
Rev said:
This is so far off it isn't funny. It definitely had the high flying speeds. The problem is that is was rare to see people taking advantage of them. It is one thing to go fast, it is something completely different to go fast and be a competant passer/receiver at those speeds/heights. In fact, only a handful of people ever reached that level.
Maybe I've been wrong all along and TR2 actually does have a higher learning curve than T2 ctf.
Rev said:
I do agree with this 100%. I'll even take it a step further and say extended TR2 play hurts CTF skills. In all fairness, it was necessary to change physics and player models to make TR2 truly enjoyable. On the flip side, it sure does suck trying to beacon stop and accelerate through water when playing ctf. I've never been anything special in ctf, I could hold my own at one point but never elite, but I swear I'm worse today than the first time I played T2.
Maybe everyone else just got alot better over the past few months.
To be honest, I was pretty bored with T2 by the time it was "rereleased", I tried TR2 for a bit and had some fun with people but there was something I can't explain that I felt in T1 that I don't feel in T2 (competitively). I was on much better T2 teams than I was on for T1 (Apex, USE, a few others for a few weeks for T2 versus a mid 30s team for T1) but there was something in the competition and preparing for competition that I felt in T1 that was missing in T2. Again, no diss on TR2 or T2, but there was just something missing from the beginning that I tried to find but never did.
A
Alexander
Guest
Funkalicious said:This is so far off it isn't funny. It definitely had the high flying speeds. The problem is that is was rare to see people taking advantage of them. It is one thing to go fast, it is something completely different to go fast and be a competant passer/receiver at those speeds/heights. In fact, only a handful of people ever reached that level.
Maybe I've been wrong all along and TR2 actually does have a higher learning curve than T2 ctf.
The dev team increased, the speeds, and then made all the models twice as large, nerfing any of the speed advantage. The game might have told you you were going at 500 kph all the time due to the size difference, but it was really about as fast as base++ with a lot more floatiness thrown in. The only time one could approach classic speeds was discjumping into the oob grid or discjumping out of the respawn tube. Most of the time was spent battling the incredible inertia forced onto the player executing a simple turn in the air.
aka it was INCREDIBLY floaty
Funkalicious
Veteran X
Rev said:
I can't argue that it wasn't floaty but we needed the additional maneuverability that classic ctf didn't provide. I think it is weird you mention that too much time was spent trying to turn in the air. I thought that in TR2 it was much easier to change directions than classic ctf. It was floaty, but I didn't see it as a bad thing in TR2. On the other hand, the floatiness probably benefitted the average players so maybe that is a major reason why so few people pushed TR2 to its limits.
Concerning speed in TR2, you may not have played enough to see what some of these guys were capable of. Again, I'll agree 100% that in an average match or pub, high speed play was not very common. However, I know firsthand that there were a select few who consistantly stretched the limits. I didn't put the time in to play well at those speeds and heights but I'm convinced TR2 would still be alive if the majority of the TR2 community had. High speed play was rare, but it was there regardless of any tweaking the dev team made. 1000 meters is 1000 meters whether it is ctf or TR2.
A
Alexander
Guest
I was playing tr2 at the beginning when it was still fresh. I played for Nutshot, and we beat the Mile High Club on a few different occasions. (trying to back up that we didn't suck ;[ )
In all the scrims, in all the matches, there were only three people I ever saw really blaze across the map. Triston, Krash, and Zephir. Triston and I were the "cowboys" for Nutshot, but he was certainly better than I at it, and might be the best at it still. And how did they all gain their speed? Respawning, discjumping.
I think I finally found what I think was the root problem of tr2.
It was impossible to gain high speeds from simply skiing unaided (yet skillfully) over the map terrain. Unless you hit a patch of water or the oob grid and discjumped, there was really no way to motor around.
In all the scrims, in all the matches, there were only three people I ever saw really blaze across the map. Triston, Krash, and Zephir. Triston and I were the "cowboys" for Nutshot, but he was certainly better than I at it, and might be the best at it still. And how did they all gain their speed? Respawning, discjumping.
I think I finally found what I think was the root problem of tr2.
It was impossible to gain high speeds from simply skiing unaided (yet skillfully) over the map terrain. Unless you hit a patch of water or the oob grid and discjumped, there was really no way to motor around.
Yeah, scrimming nutshot was cool (lmao we scrimed). Then all we did was matches etc..
The game was alot of fun. Even playing goalie was alot of fun with a good team infront of you. I can remember days where me gallium and krash would just hop on a server and they would pass around and shoot on me. I think I had more fun there than I did in matches.
The game was alot of fun. Even playing goalie was alot of fun with a good team infront of you. I can remember days where me gallium and krash would just hop on a server and they would pass around and shoot on me. I think I had more fun there than I did in matches.
I look forward to hearing from KP, now that he has the time to reply and is no longer held back by the T:V announcement.
I think we are all in agreement here that TR2 still has a lot of potential, and needs a giant kick in the ass.
Let's get this party started again!
I think we are all in agreement here that TR2 still has a lot of potential, and needs a giant kick in the ass.
Let's get this party started again!