[MAP PACK] Released At Last

mentasm said:

I'd rather span in a light in almost all circumstances....

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in t1, light spawning was great when no invs were involved (sh pub)
also, it felt right when you had a lot of bases far away from each other.

here, light spawning is going out on a limb because of maps like emerald/junk etc. stuff where its already too small, too closed in, it threatens to wash over you with excessive ease of kill.

on a map like temerity it doesn't bug me because there is ample distance. but one where there can be an effortless ho sitting in your base 24/7... mmm...

Well two points I wanted to add.

1. Changing the spawns to lights will hopefully help out the defense some, as offense is already a bit overpowered (an understatement )

2. Devo_N, the reason your map was changed to light, was because all maps are being changed to light. It would be pointless to have some maps where you spawn in light, and some where you spawn in medium. Currently all the maps in the pack (redos of originals as well) allow you to spawn in light.

NeoLotus said:

Changing the spawnarmor will cripple me a little...Im playing as medium about 90% of the time. Its my preferred armortype in T:V as um usuly defending.

Its nothing i cant adjust to though, and i guess most people will want to spawn in light. And in any case, the maps in the pack are amazing! A huge thanks to all mappers and all people involved in this.

Now, how the hell do we get all servers to install this?

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I just downloaded so I haven't tried the maps yet, but I have played on maps that have light spawn.

Spawning in light changes the play balance of every map to favor the offense more, I'm not sure everyone realizes this. I had gotten used to the change to favor more speed/capping compared to T2, but this pushes it even further.

I play a lot of MD trying to buckler block. On maps with a med spawn after the initial inv visit I can re-use the buckler I dropped near the flag over and over. I can also hit a deployable inv is the base is raped. I can't do this if I spawn in light.

Cappers however can hit a deployable inv and be set up for LO w/E or w/S for capping run even with a raped base.

Having it harder to keep the flag home will lead to even more standoffs.

I do appreciate all the hard work put into this. TV is a great game and I know this can only help the community in the long run. I didn't realize that changes like this were in the works. Probably too late, but here is my input anyways.

I will ask my team captain to reject light spawn versions of maps for BEML competition.

Homerpf said:

1. Changing the spawns to lights will hopefully help out the defense some, as offense is already a bit overpowered (an understatement )

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Well I disagree, as you can see from my post. Maybe you can explain what you mean.

Not sure how you think light spawns favor the offense more, but stopping a light capper is 10x easier then stopping a medium capper w/ buckler. Not sure about the competition you have on the BEML ladder, but I'm guessing you get a different picture then a lot of the players that have wanted light spawns.

Not to mention if I'm going to be forced to play in spawn around the flag, lights are 10x more effective then a spawn medium.

Keweenaw said:

I just downloaded so I haven't tried the maps yet, but I have played on maps that have light spawn.

Spawning in light changes the play balance of every map to favor the offense more, I'm not sure everyone realizes this. I had gotten used to the change to favor more speed/capping compared to T2, but this pushes it even further.

I play a lot of MD trying to buckler block. On maps with a med spawn after the initial inv visit I can re-use the buckler I dropped near the flag over and over. I can also hit a deployable inv is the base is raped. I can't do this if I spawn in light.

Cappers however can hit a deployable inv and be set up for LO w/E or w/S for capping run even with a raped base.

Having it harder to keep the flag home will lead to even more standoffs.

I do appreciate all the hard work put into this. TV is a great game and I know this can only help the community in the long run. I didn't realize that changes like this were in the works. Probably too late, but here is my input anyways.

I will ask my team captain to reject light spawn versions of maps for BEML competition.

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what your argument is based off of is called reliance. relying too much on one single weapon to do a job of body blocking/MAing... christ, come on, this is tribes. tribes has always been about MA's and BBs, not a fucking rubber band effect off a buckler. learn to play the game with skills, not a crutch like the buckler.

to the people that say this makes capping easier, i beg to differ partially. it makes e-grabs easier, which is almost always a defensive part of the game. no team goes into a match "oh, we'll just egrab the whole time as our offense." e-grabs are completely defensive in nature, such as in that they deny the opponent a cap.

again, the whole point of the spawn in light is mobility. i know someone pointed out a map like emerald... why the hell complain there? on emerald, you can NOT fly base to base in medium off spawn. i'd rather have the mobility to get out and chase down a flag carrier, or get out and be able to move around to kill a heavy, rather than be tied to the ground so to speak in an armor class that seems to weigh twice as much as the lights. and for a very small benefit of living through one extra half disc/one hand grenade? not worth it in the long run, compared to the benefits of the e-grabs and mobile spawn defense.

Homerpf said:

Not sure how you think light spawns favor the offense more, but stopping a light capper is 10x easier then stopping a medium capper w/ buckler. Not sure about the competition you have on the BEML ladder, but I'm guessing you get a different picture then a lot of the players that have wanted light spawns.

Not to mention if I'm going to be forced to play in spawn around the flag, lights are 10x more effective then a spawn medium.

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now if we could just get rid of the invs, heavies, mediums, vehicles, other weaponry, base assets, diversity of any manner... we can have LT2!!!!!!

i do understand what you're saying, but (perhaps im just paranoid) that is the direction this change would be pushing us in...

[edit grammar bleh]

Homerpf said:

Not sure how you think light spawns favor the offense more, but stopping a light capper is 10x easier then stopping a medium capper w/ buckler. Not sure about the competition you have on the BEML ladder, but I'm guessing you get a different picture then a lot of the players that have wanted light spawns.

Not to mention if I'm going to be forced to play in spawn around the flag, lights are 10x more effective then a spawn medium.

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Are you suggesting that most cappers in current maps use medium to cap in?

I suppose it depends on the map, but I don't think thats true.

I'm willing to try out the maps in pubs. Like I said before I do appreciate the all work involved in this from everyone.

One of my roles and how I play the game is going to have to significantly change. I just didn't expect that from a map pack.

Actually a lot of those things you mentioned were brought up when we discussed what parts of maps needed to be edited.

There was an opinion that extra vehicles such as bombers/tanks should be taken out of some maps and pods limited to 1. While that would have made me quite happy, I know that many teams use vehicles to their advantage, and would be going over the lines of changing maps for the better.

Changing the spawn armors can be looked at as changing gameplay, but on the same note can also be looked at as changing the way the maps are played. A lot of the maps that will be put into competition will be smaller maps which T:V seems to run the best. I don't see many 1000-1500m maps being put into comp play truthfully. I'm up for any discussions you guys have on a map to map basis truthfully.

I just find it hard to believe that spawning in medium helps moreso than light on an overall basis.

Spawning in medium gives you a bit of extra health and the ability to use the buckler for flag d. However, I really don't think those 2 things outweigh all the possibilities spawning in light opens up.

not by any means. it would be nice if it took more than a speed packed light to rape a base, but you're never gonna see a decline in the number of mortar packing heavies if a team has its base up.

overall, spawning in light will help out the defense more than it creates a new offense. a more mobile player has a better, easier, and altogether more productive time on a spawn defensive setting (ie when your base is trashed). granted, defenses that relied on the buckler before are going to have to learn to MA/BB incoming opposition, but this is a step towards the direction of making the game more skills based. there have been so many whining and complaining threads that just about one thing or another is gay or newbified in T:V that wasnt in t1/t2, why in the hell would any vet complain about going back to the old, skilled way of blocking off incoming cappers/ho?

and yes, before ppl say it, i know that you have to get teh bb in to use a buckler block, but come on... the buckler shouldnt even bounce ppl back. go run into someone with a big wooden shield, and then run into them with your shoulder. probably negligble difference in how far they get bumped backwards. if a team needs the defensive crutch of a buckler, or a grapple/shield/buckler capper needs his buckler, they can earn it. having a little tougher, more skill based defense will help out in the long run, especially because of the mobility of the armor class now. being able to fly higher and farther will help out with most defensive aspects of the game, apart from being camped, but i went into that earlier... for the benefit of ppl that werent here then, didnt pay attention, whatever, camping issue: mortar will most likely kill both armor classes if it falls within a 10m radius of you. in the event that a medium lives through it, what then occurs when half your team respawns at the same time with that heavy still camping your spawn room? or hell, even heavy still within range of another shot? one disc, one hand grenade, another fucking mortar, any damage will probably kill you right off, leaving health kits for that camping heavy, more hand grenades, more discs... endless cycle. and then, once you get away from the heavy camping, then you go into the issue of defending your base/flag in light vs medium, where some vets have already said that they would prefer to defend in light due to its mobility and speed, rather than defend those things in medium.

Geiss said:

learn to play the game with skills, not a crutch like the buckler.

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[STRIKE]I've already learned to play the game.

thanks for changing it[/STRIKE]

ehh thats too pissy

you guys did the testing, guess I'll just have to try it out

Keweenaw said:

Are you suggesting that most cappers in current maps use medium to cap in?

I suppose it depends on the map, but I don't think thats true.

I'm willing to try out the maps in pubs. Like I said before I do appreciate the all work involved in this from everyone.

One of my roles and how I play the game is going to have to significantly change. I just didn't expect that from a map pack.

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I wasn't suggesting that there are more medium cappers then light cappers, but stopping a light capper is a lot easier than medium/buckler cappers. Grapple/shield cappers were bad enough, but now that I see more and more players grabbing flag in shield and using buckler to stop LD from bb'ing/ma'ing on their way in, grabbing flag, then using the buckler to deflect sniper/disc/chain fire on them as they just disc themselves home doesn't seem very good for the game.

By spawning in light you can have better mobility while at the same time have the ability to use the burner (to stop buckler cappers). Playing medium d w/ buckler and such is more of a stayhome position then anything.

your title says it all... i'm really hating what this is going to become, new guys to the community vs older more experienced players. but if its going to become it, let it start now. get the competition experience of some of these older guys, 4+ years of t1 base/t2 base/t2 classic, before thinking that your opinion is the end-all-be-all. i'm hardly saying any one person's is, but hell, its been obvious for months that no one likes everything about the game with all the flame threads here. members have started plenty of those to boot. but in the end, when it comes to taking suggestions and hearing complaints, i'm going to take the word of people i know to have been around for a long time in the competition setting we're all talking about, over the word of someone just starting the game.

this is another thing that was talked about when i was on vent with homer and his crew last night. putting this sort of thing to a vote of any sort will NOT bode well for results, because of the fact that a majority of this population has proved that they dont know wtf they want, as evidenced by this game itself. i'm not putting forward specific people to make the decisions for the whole community, but like i said, i'm going to take certain people's opinions more seriously than others because i know how long they've seen the game played, and i've been there with them in that.

Wow, just wow. Almost my every hope for this game has been dashed. I watched comp mod degenerate into a mod that "fixes" alot of stuff that's not broken. Now, the map pack that I had so much faith in, goes and attempts to change the basic way the game is played. Spawning in medium was not something that was broken. This is a MOD, not a map pack......

Some one said it's not that big of a deal to change your loadouts, but it is when you only have a limited number of slots you have practical access to, and on half the maps you spawn in light, and on half in medium.

Why Geiss? Why did you put so much effort into this, only to do something like this and throw it all out the window? Why couldn't you just release new a pack with some new maps to the community, and leave your personal feelings about game play behind?

Try it out for a while before having such a cry

just make a poll...light vs medium as spawnarmor

I didn't read the whole thread, but these maps have us spawning in Light now?

If so, it should be in the form of an OPTIONAL mutator, not a map design.

I was really excited about the map pack and what this community is doing for the game... and I am still appreciative of the work that was done. But, changing the spawn armor has changed the basic way I play the game... and doing it for versatility over armor strength is bull. I could disc jump in med spawn to chase a capper that probably just killed me at the stand and have a slim chance of landing a few more shots on him... a dj in light takes you down to 21-24 health, so you catch a bump or a few stray cg rounds and you're dead. In my way of playing the only people this might help is stay home D snipers... and of course point whoring base rapers.

All reasons for those of us that are opposed to the idea aside... why would you change gameplay in a map pack without mentioning it before it was released? Like the poster a few posts up said... "Why couldn't you just release a new pack with some new maps to the community, and leave your personal feelings about game play behind?"

Oh well... I have played tribes for years and years... I doubt my opinion means much and I bet it means even less that I'm just about done with the game after realizing that the community I thought might save it, once again has an agenda that caters only to the |33t competitors.

Thanks for the maps though... they are all amazing work.

Thanks to Giess and everyone else that built a map or otherwised helped with the map pack. Many custom maps are an absolute blast to play.

I'm disappointed with the spawning in light bit. I guess coming from T2, where there were many custom maps and map packs, I don't expect such changes from a map pack. The discussion about whether its good for the game or not isn't something I feel qualified to contribute to, but I think if change is necessary it would be better left to somethng like CompMod.

Homerpf said:

It would be pointless to have some maps where you spawn in light, and some where you spawn in medium. Currently all the maps in the pack (redos of originals as well) allow you to spawn in light.

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Unfortunately that's the situation we'll have now. BEML I'm sure will use some VM and some non-VM maps, if not this season then next, and so we'll have different spawn armors from map to map. We could edit the pack, but this creates problems for server operators serving multiple leagues.

But in the end, it's a minor issue that we'll find a way around or just live with. It shouldn't diminish our gratitude to everyone involved with this project.

zar, all maps spawn in light, not just some. and again, disc jumping was another problem with this game, especially since they took out the option of using a health pack. light are able to fly faster and farther after those flag carriers without the use of the DJ.