[Westworld] WTF season 2

Fool said:
Right? Fun challenge, whenever someone says they like Westworld, ask them to name 3 non-robot characters.
Click to expand...

You'll win that uncontested every time. Which is a shame. I wholly enjoyed the first season and thought it had legs.
 
William/Man In Black
Charlotte Hale
Ford

It isn't that hard.

But why do non-host characters matter? The hosts are the ones evolving, changing.

I enjoy the show not really for the overall story which still seems like a 50/50 shot to pull a Lost but more for the superb production value. Just take each scene, each episode as an individual experience and enjoy them for what they are. Don't think or give any real effort to care about the overall plot, if it goes anywhere they will provide plenty of exposition to catch you up before getting to where they are going.
 
MadHatSam said:
But why do non-host characters matter? The hosts are the ones evolving, changing.
Click to expand...

Robots gonna robot. With an all-host cast, there is no baseline to determine whether the robots are discovering human nature, rebelling against it, or merely following their programming. Can a viewer really have empathy for Maeve in her search for her daughter, knowing it's driven by her programming, that her daughter is actually just a robot, and if they're both "killed" they're not really dead? Without the human element, there is no sense of danger, no tension. The timelines and "surprise host!" elements don't help this either, as they can simply kill someone only to have them reappear 2 minutes later, perfectly fine, but that's beside the point. In a lot of ways it's similar to Battlestar Galactica.

Season 1 is a good example of what I'm talking about with William. He's kind and gentle, thinks of others. He struggles with the darker side of the park, and finds himself falling in love with a robot. Meanwhile Logan is fine shooting random kids. A premise is established that if the robots actually are gaining sentience, what they are forced to deal with at the hands of a Logan is absolutely horrific. It builds empathy, but it is also offset by running into a William, who shows kindness. That conflict makes for good storytelling.

With no human characters left, there's no real conflict. It results in robots gonna robot. They're either gonna kill the humans who come to take the park back, or they're gonna get destroyed. All the meanwhile nothing really happens, and there's very little character development, because they're just robots with nothing to measure them against but other robots. I just think the show would work a hell of a lot better had they introduced a group of humans into the park, now trying to survive. A mix of empathetic characters you hope survive, and some dicks you hope get killed. Some have arcs where they change. The robots come into conflict because they feel justified in killing dicks but don't want to kill the nice people, lest they become the monsters themselves. Conflict. Resolution. Story.
 
Perfectly fair criticism, the show is definitely peddling a fake depth.

Which is why I don't really give a shit about the plot, and mostly just enjoy the good pieces for what they are as individual works.
 
I can't deny it's a pretty show. I definitely feel it's now a show where I could skip two or three weeks and not be lost at all with the plot.
 
Fool said:
Robots gonna robot. With an all-host cast, there is no baseline to determine whether the robots are discovering human nature, rebelling against it, or merely following their programming. Can a viewer really have empathy for Maeve in her search for her daughter, knowing it's driven by her programming, that her daughter is actually just a robot, and if they're both "killed" they're not really dead? Without the human element, there is no sense of danger, no tension.
Click to expand...

u want to talk about a lack of danger or tension? consider: jon snow, tyrion. any marvel universe movie. plot armor means more to danger or tension then any creed/color/race of a character, and i can honestly say it doesn't feel like anyone in westworld has significant plot armor

the idea that maeve is only programmed to search for her daughter becomes an ethical/philosophical debate that you may or may not give a shit about. TLDR; aren't we as humans programmed too?


Fool said:
The timelines and "surprise host!" elements don't help this either, as they can simply kill someone only to have them reappear 2 minutes later, perfectly fine, but that's beside the point. In a lot of ways it's similar to Battlestar Galactica.
Click to expand...

while in a general sense you could reduce the hosts being able to die and resurrect as a writers shortcut, the show builds on the idea of life/death/resurrection in meaningful ways similar to countless eastern buddhist parables about rebirth - alot of the ethical drama is built on these philosophical questions. the ship of theseus is referenced and is one of the easiest examples. in last nights episode, again one of the best episodes of television i've ever seen, the resurrection/multiple time lines is used to build up the central tension of hanzee's life. he has a family, a love, then he fights through multiple lives to figure out whats going on and how to get them back. the whole thing is wrapped up in tension and drama, theres loyalty, sacrifice, trust, mystery, revenge. the idea that he travels to the land of the dead, finds the bodies of his wife/others taht have gone missing, has a conversation with god, i mean everything works so god damn well, to write off the host die->resurrect thing as a simple immortal life trope is like writing off the entirety of got has zombies vs dragons

Fool said:
Season 1 is a good example of what I'm talking about with William. He's kind and gentle, thinks of others. He struggles with the darker side of the park, and finds himself falling in love with a robot. Meanwhile Logan is fine shooting random kids. A premise is established that if the robots actually are gaining sentience, what they are forced to deal with at the hands of a Logan is absolutely horrific. It builds empathy, but it is also offset by running into a William, who shows kindness. That conflict makes for good storytelling.

With no human characters left, there's no real conflict. It results in robots gonna robot. They're either gonna kill the humans who come to take the park back, or they're gonna get destroyed.
Click to expand...

you're example explains that "if robots gain sentience they are forced to deal with...horror. it builds empathy" and then you follow that up with "no humans...no conflict." you're arguing with yourself here. the robots get abused, it builds empathy. this is covered in god knows how many books and tv shows, whether its robots/aliens/the god damn fremen from dune/the wildlings/johnny fuckin five. sentience is secondary to the fact that some class of things is being manipulated/abused/fucked with by the badmen and the audience feels sympathy. whether robots gonna robot is ancillary (ooh fancy word)

Fool said:
All the meanwhile nothing really happens, and there's very little character development, because they're just robots with nothing to measure them against but other robots. I just think the show would work a hell of a lot better had they introduced a group of humans into the park, now trying to survive. A mix of empathetic characters you hope survive, and some dicks you hope get killed. Some have arcs where they change. The robots come into conflict because they feel justified in killing dicks but don't want to kill the nice people, lest they become the monsters themselves. Conflict. Resolution. Story.
Click to expand...

listen. nobody gives a shit about dolores. nobody. and i think its more then fair to say that overall the characters in westworld are weak. if you don't like maeve, thats up to you. thadie newton was/is a frontrunner for the emmy cuz reasons. her arc with her daughter is shot specifically to contrast with everything else in the show and build emotion (and rip off terrence malick). she is an amazing actress that when i watch her i literally only see maeve and not a hint of anything else. half the time i watch dolores im trying to figure out if shes actually a man, shrug. bernard is the classic unreliable narrator character and alot of the mystery is built around him. if u dont like deep diving and running through theories ( similar to R+L=J, mr. robot), listening to podcasts or going through the reddit after an episode airing, then really the show isn't for you.

westworld isn't a conventional tv show. i dont think anyone can imagine their parents tuning in and trying to figure out half the shit that happens. the venn diagram of people that watch america's got talent and westworld is two circles without overlap. 80% of the episodes are layered like an onion and require outside help to piece everything together. i do not recommend the show to anyone that isn't interested in that.

that said, within the other 20% there is really strong quality tv. especially this season. episode 4, man in black, was fking awesome. almost stand-alone. the episode that followed in samuraiworld was fking awesome. it's the pinnacle of TV direction/production/resources invested in basically fanservice. if you don't want to watch 60 minutes of HBO going all-in on a samurai bloodbath one-off, i don't want to talk to you. dont read this. last nights episode was also a one-off, doesn't really require any understanding of the show, and was spec-fucking-tacular
 
Last edited:
69yoq5te7a311.jpg
 
i didnt post that bc its stupid. The show is trying to be too clever and have so many storylines. thats what made last nights so awesome, it was largely linear.
 
If Vanster ever checks back in I need to ask him if Indians always talking slow in TV/Film is offensive or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top