Tribes3 -- no cd check please

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Gonstone said:
Just gives us T3 for free, and charge us a one time fee to open the account. :p

That cuts out those annoying stores which you force us to drive to.
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you don't have to drive to the stores. welcome to the internet.

there's probably some issues with implementation, but that's not a bad idea really.
 
Sir Lucius said:
Actually I played all the way through red faction 2 but that was so fucking short it wasn't even funny (deffinatly not for pc, I can see xbox people getting it tho).
I think the real lesson here is for game devs to not make crap titles.
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You are a thief and nothing you say, no way you rationalize it or make excuses about it, will make it right. Steal watches from a store or games from us, it's the same.

Enough with the excuses - we've heard them all and it doesn't make it ok to steal. Just stop it already.
 
I don't see why the CD Check matters. We'll all just crack it anyway. I mean, no real reason to argue against one, since it's so damned easy to circumvent.
 
Menzo said:
You are a thief and nothing you say, no way you rationalize it or make excuses about it, will make it right. Steal watches from a store or games from us, it's the same.

Enough with the excuses - we've heard them all and it doesn't make it ok to steal. Just stop it already.
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I wasn't raised with the morals that online piracy was overly wrong -- I'm sorry but it's just not something I was conditioned to, perhapes you'll have to hope for future generations.

But if you're going to call me a theif then you're calling every other person on this forum who has mp3s from cds they don't own, warezed copies of photoshop, illustator, lightwave, 3d studio max, sound forge, windows xp/2000, pirated movies etc. You may get mad at me b/c it hits close to home for your line of work -- but well over half your fan base is compsed of theives anyways.

You know if people never did pirate these graphics applications you wouldn't have a mod community. How many fan based skins do think have been made with legit software? I suppose you want all these people to stop pirating things as well. I doubt it, you'd kill your mod community, and a good mod can fluke your sales (counterstrike, desert combat).

I'm sorry this is so personal for you, but a lot of us who pirate DO buy games. I can't even list all of the games I've bought but I've put in BUCKETS of money for your industry. I have no remorse from pirating games, but if it makes you feel any better I do plan on actually paying for tribes3.
 
Ixiterra said:
Thrax said he didn't know an approximate number. What I want to know is if big chain retailers are doing this (such as Best Buy and EB), or if it's just mom-and-pop stores.

In any case, the real objective is to get people who did not pay for the game to stop playing the game after they return it. And unless retailers and publishers work more closely on this, it's not going to happen.
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I was asked to give an alternative to cd checking. I already presented my case as to why I don't think cd checking works, but since the sierra folks here say otherwise I felt I should present something inside their scope.
 
Mad Monk said:
until someone cracks the key generation scheme and starts killing other people's accounts by using their keys with a copied cd in the tray.

gg's
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Except key gens don't work for online games b/c they need to verified by the auth server. You can can generate a random cd key but it'll only be by random chance that it's a valid one.
Think about every other multiplaer game in existance where gen'd keys don't work -- same thing for my system.

-nothing left to prove
 
Mad Monk said:
until someone cracks the key generation scheme and starts killing other people's accounts by using their keys with a copied cd in the tray.

gg's
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That is only likely happen if you are stupid enough to put code into the client side of the game to authorize the CD Key. If you don't do that, then in order to create a keygen you're going to have to first, hack the authservers or otherwise obtain the authorization routine, then come up with a keygen. No one has made that mistake since Blizzard did it with Starcraft, or war2 bnet edition. I can't remember which game it was.
 
A CD Check doesn't stop burn and return anyway does it? Who does it stop exactly when you have a T2 style auth system?

The people that Thrax seems to be talking about, those that buy the game, create and account and then return it can be addressed somewhat easily IMO. When that cust serv call comes in, the first thing that should be done is to check the CD Key to verify it was used to make an account, then invalidate the CD Key.

I think that the nail was hit on the head in that in order to full address this problem there is going to need to be work done between the distributor and the retailer, because in the end, the consumer is going to get around that CD check one way or another. The only real problem that exists now (in my un informed opinion) is burn and return, and with T2 style auth that is only a problem if you don't have a facility to invalidate cd-keys from copies of the game which were returned.
 
Sir Lucius said:
I wasn't raised with the morals that online piracy was overly wrong -- I'm sorry but it's just not something I was conditioned to, perhapes you'll have to hope for future generations.

But if you're going to call me a theif then you're calling every other person on this forum who has mp3s from cds they don't own, warezed copies of photoshop, illustator, lightwave, 3d studio max, sound forge, windows xp/2000, pirated movies etc. You may get mad at me b/c it hits close to home for your line of work -- but well over half your fan base is compsed of theives anyways.

You know if people never did pirate these graphics applications you wouldn't have a mod community. How many fan based skins do think have been made with legit software? I suppose you want all these people to stop pirating things as well. I doubt it, you'd kill your mod community, and a good mod can fluke your sales (counterstrike, desert combat).

I'm sorry this is so personal for you, but a lot of us who pirate DO buy games. I can't even list all of the games I've bought but I've put in BUCKETS of money for your industry. I have no remorse from pirating games, but if it makes you feel any better I do plan on actually paying for tribes3.
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lol... of all the reasons why people say they pirate software, I think this is the lamest one I have ever heard. The first paragraph alone made me laugh.

Lucious, do you have a job? If so, what do you do?

(BTW.. the mod community can do fine off free software)
 
Menzo said:
You are a thief and nothing you say, no way you rationalize it or make excuses about it, will make it right. Steal watches from a store or games from us, it's the same.

Enough with the excuses - we've heard them all and it doesn't make it ok to steal. Just stop it already.
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It would be helpful, and probably good for publicity, if you addressed the serious issues brought up, and didn't just reply to the tards.
 
Require the cd for patches only. I bought t2 and still disabled the cd check because it was annoying, but I probably would not have disabled it if it only came up during patches.

Require it during patches is just as good as every time its played because you KNOW there will be patches. No offense, but even disregarding the t2 fiasco every game these days has patches.

Will t3 have a cenral login like t2 or half-life?
 
Locke355 said:
No.. i think the honest consumer is tired of shitty cd checks and bullshit reasons from publishing companies. We are also tired of CD checks which sometimes decide not to work, saying the cd isn't in the damn tray when it is (those are an extra fun kick in the balls). I respect your work, and think you should get paid for it. You want to protect it, fine. Just dont dressup some halfassed solution, and call it dandy.

Look.. i hate software piracy. I make my living writing software, and I dont want to be jacked either. I have a respect for those who make the software, and I want them to get paid, so I purchase every piece of software I use (yes, even from Microshit).

However, putting CD copy protection on a game is fuckin useless. The only thing less effective against copy protection is putting "DO NOT COPY" on the cd label. Every time i see a game require the CD, I see the crack for that game out the day after release. Come on guys. If you can crack the operating system the game runs on, you sure as hell can crack the game. Your only real software protection is forcing communication with a secure server, which you actually do in multiplayer tribes.

Requiring a CD at patch time is just as useless as every time you play, because someone will crack it and distribute the files. Maybe you should just pull out the DMCA now. We all know Vivendi lawyers like that piece of shit.

So unless you are up for writing a patch a day to change how cd authentication is done, and having it autoupdate the client, please dont waste our time swapping cd's. I understand your problem, and I can sympathize. But myself, a paying customer, shouldn't be inconvenienced by a means of security which is next to worthless.
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The problem here is a problem of knowledge. Whether the CD-check can be cracked and used by technical users it not the question. The majority of people who want to crack their copy of the game do not purchase it--but if they do, most of them are smart enough to realize that returning it would probably create issues with their CD-key anyway. The problem is with the common buyer of their software.

Joe Smith is not computer savy and doesn't see the whole picture. After he purchases the game and installs it, he's the one who's stupid enough to think that by returning the CD (should it be un-protected) he can get away with it. This encourages some returned purchases.

The real issue is when this legitimate user wants to return the game and STOP playing it. This shouldn't be allowed by vendors. Perhaps there should be some way to recover these returned CD keys--be it a uninstall program that asks (not completely feasible) or requirement by the vendors to report every CD key returned.
 
last time i checked, there were free or low cost programs out there (gimp for example) that had the same or even more features than photoshop. So without a pirated version of photoshop...you would still have all those mods and whatnot...gasp.

i'm not saying i've never pirated anything...i suspect that almost everyone has *at some point in their life*, however it is LUDICROUS to somehow say "it is okay".

The fact is, you are making someone lose money. I think it's mainly high school students / college students that have this feeling that it is okay to do this because *for the most part* they don't have to survive on their own.
 
Perhapes it's not ok to steal software, I wasn't really trying to make the point that it was. I was just saying that I don't care that I do.

Those weren't excuses locke, they were reasons for why I am how I am.

I'll put it even more bluntly -- I like free stuff.

Locke, I usually get part time jobs in the summer, I'm a student. When I have money I buy my games, when I don't have money I steal them. That's just my general pattern.

I don't care if you think you're better than me just becuase you buy every piece of software you own. It's a shallow victory for yourself only.


Got Haggis, if programs like photoshop, and 3dsmax could not be warez what so ever they would not be as popular. People would just use the freeware instead. I doubt people when then go out of their way to buy a 200-1000 dollar piece of software. If it weren't for warez photoshop would not be a verb.
 
Natural said:
The problem here is a problem of knowledge. Whether the CD-check can be cracked and used by technical users it not the question. The majority of people who want to crack their copy of the game do not purchase it--but if they do, most of them are smart enough to realize that returning it would probably create issues with their CD-key anyway. The problem is with the common buyer of their software.

Joe Smith is not computer savy and doesn't see the whole picture. After he purchases the game and installs it, he's the one who's stupid enough to think that by returning the CD (should it be un-protected) he can get away with it. This encourages some returned purchases.

The real issue is when this legitimate user wants to return the game and STOP playing it. This shouldn't be allowed by vendors. Perhaps there should be some way to recover these returned CD keys--be it a uninstall program that asks (not completely feasible) or requirement by the vendors to report every CD key returned.
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You dont need to be a technical user to download and use a game crack. Just like some little teenage girl (who doesn't now how to format a floppy, or where to plug the cable coming from her DSL) can go to kazaa and download any music she wants, so can she go to kazaa or search the net and find the cd crack. The instructions are quite simple, unzip, copy to folder. Hell, in XP you dont even need to unzip, since the zips look like a folder anyways.

I understand your joe dumbass scenario. I think that 1/2 of them will install it, play it with the cd in the cd tray cause they are too lazy to take it out, and then return it to the store that same day (or the next), only to then find out that you need a cd. Then off to the internet searches he goes! Even if he doesn't, you are still left with the cd already returned. Also, I am not sure of the numbers (and thrax or pilt could enlighten the situation), but I am willing to bet that the number who returned the game is a handful compared to those who really purchased it.

The huge issue here is can you return a piece of software that you have opened? If the lady who is suing microsoft and others (on behalf of the software users of California) has her way, then yes you will be able to, simply because EULAs fuck up the whole equation. Hell, even bigger issue is I purchased this game (T2), it is a shitty fuckin product, and I want my money back. Portraying software as a "you are screwed if you are unsatisfied" market is not a good way to go.
 
Lets not turn this into an argument over the implications of warezing software please.

The reality of the situation is that if there is a cdcheck, then someone will patch it out. The people that are extremely anti-cd check for one reason or another will get around it regardless, but they are going to have to buy the game in the first place no matter what.

If they are going to buy, crack and return, or buy, burn and return, then the cd check is going to be ineffective from stopping those people from doing what they are going to do. The ONLY way that i can see to stop people from being able to do that is to somehow get the cdkeys which were associated with those returned items, invalidating them, and the accounts which were made using them.

Is this somehow inaccurate?
 
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During installation make it well known that the CD is required to play the game. But have the message be made in a distinct way, not just another quick menu I'll hit [Next] on just to install/finish install.

As for used keys which were returned... would it be possible to link the algorithm for the keys to the UPC code of the box? So when they re-scan it back into their computers (when you return the game) it could store the code and key in one? Then all they would really have to do is send out the UPC code to Sierra at which point they simply terminate it on their end. But I hope this solution doesn't make another problem, the last thing we need are a bunch of guys going to the store and copying down the UPC codes to get legit CD-keys. :p
 
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Sir Lucius said:
Locke, I usually get part time jobs in the summer, I'm a student. When I have money I buy my games, when I don't have money I steal them. That's just my general pattern.
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Thank you, that is much better than "i wasn't conditioned to believe this".. as if there is a difference between downloading a piece of software and walking into a sports store, and grabbing 5 gloves, 2 bats, and a baseball. The real difference is you wont get caught doing the former, so it becomes easy to steal for those who are shady.

Sir Lucius said:
I don't care if you think you're better than me just becuase you buy every piece of software you own. It's a shallow victory for yourself only.
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I dont think I am better than you because I buy software. I think I am better than you because I dont try to bullshit myself into thinking stealing is ok if you try and justify it with absurd arguments.
 
what I'm about to propose is impractical for t:tng but might be an area for devs to go.

Some sort of online cd key deactivation system if you want to return an opened game.

Basically, Johnny wants to return his game, you make it so that he has to deactivate his key first on the internet. Then when he goes to store, to make return, clerk must run that cd key to the company (not much different than a credit card transaction really) and make sure its been deactivated.

The reason I explain it this way and not just have the workers do it is that you open yourself up to a world of corruption from the workers. I say make it so that store workers CANT do it, but can only check. Of course its more a concept than anything else, but I don't think it'd be impossible to implement.
 
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