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Vanster
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Old
221 - 04-25-2010, 06:20
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Wow.

I've never ignored anyone on this forum, but you're tempting me.
Maxx? he's a big lovable disney character. He's just joshin.
 
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MaxxCarnage
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222 - 04-25-2010, 06:20
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Wow.

I've never ignored anyone on this forum, but you're tempting me.
How many illegal immigrants do you know? How about legal ones? How many members of the hispanic community do you hang out with?
Sorry, but when I see Mexicans getting tired of other mexicans assuming they speak spanish... when I see really hard working Americans who immigrated from Mexico tired of getting a bad rep. because of illegal immigration, I tend to think 'holy **** there IS a problem'. Maybe they are just... racist? Or... uh.... agoraphobic, yea that's it!
 
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Ezlpo
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223 - 04-25-2010, 06:20
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Originally Posted by Vanster View Post
I'm a fan of binary as well. It makes sense when so much other bull**** is flying around. It's on, or it's off.

This, my friend is a chaotic system. The zeros and ones are complicated beyond what I'm able to mathematically work out. I'll give you the framework of what I know, and ask you to bring your insight to bear on it.

I passionately want to preserve the way of life I now enjoy, and I do not want it disturbed by an influx of people that don't understand the U.S., and the way we do things here. But enough about Texans. *rimshot*.

This big ship of fools we call earth is going to be here long after yours and my grandchildren are dead, no matter what the green weirdos say. The earth has no need of our help, it's going to be just fine. The problem of immigration, basically, is that we have a bunch of people that don't want to work, or try, or make a contribution, that want some pie anyway. None of us think they deserve pie if they ain't gonna work. On these points, I think we're square and in agreement.

One of the problems is that this ship has a couple of holes in it, and the idiots on board are yelling to those closest to the hole that they better get their **** together, because their end of the boat is sinking. You and I need to teach the yellers that they're being really stupid, and while we're doing that, we need to fix the holes in the ship AND while we're doing that, we need to keep the boat sailing straight and everybody paid and fed. All of this has to be done while taking care of the stupids. Holy ****, just describing what we have in front of us makes me scared.

The United States must preserve this way of life. That is certain. The freedoms (and that includes no search and seizure without a warrant) that we have must be preserved. Immigration can't muck that up. What I want is to educate. I want people to look at the United States and see that totalitarian systems of rule are corrupt and wrong and they don't work, I don't want them to look at the United States and just want to steal what we've worked for. Unless they understand why we do things the way we do them, they're just going to want to steal it. So it's a given that we are going to have to invest resources in educating them. Even bandaids cost money, and this is a pretty big wound. We need language and civics classes for people coming in, and we need to better educate our own in matters of reading, writing and arithmetic. We have to get smarter, and we have to get thinner. And we have to stop ****ing so much, or if we are gonna **** a lot, we gotta have some birth control. There are too many of us. Americans are dead if we don't.

Also, the smart folks (like me and thee) understand that there has to be a division of labor. SOMEONE is going to have to sweep and mop the floor. Someone is going to have to take out the trash, and sculpt our yards, and empty the ****ters, because those are things that have to be done. Right now, companies are illegally hiring illegal aliens to do these things, paying them ****-wages for doing it, but get this- the aliens are happy to do it for that price, and the companies have citizen stock-holders that have an interest in that company's profit margin, and are tacitly (sup fngr) making sure that the company continues to pay illegals so they can remain as successful as they have been. What the ****? And then they go to the media and complain about all the Mexicans. They're unscrupulous bastards, and they need to be punished, but when we start doing it, those companies and businesses are going to suffer. They will have less labor getting done, their overhead is going to go up, and they have to start paying American wages to American workers. When their profits decline, the American stockholders aren't happy. It's a ****ing mess.

This is turning into a wall of text, but you said you wanted it as black and white, so I'm attempting to give you that. There is an awful lot of black and white here, and as far as solutions, I'm uncertain. I have some things in mind that sound good to me right now, but I'm not convinced they're going to go great. I'm not the amazing Kreskin, I can't predict the future- I'm ****ty at predicting anything, really. There is another problem: we've got people yelling out all kinds of solutions and then they have the gall to say they are 100% sure that their solution is going to work. again, WHAT THE ****? How are these people able to tie their own shoes in the morning? Nobody knows exactly what will happen. When Whoopie Goldberg sits on The View and says her persnickity little philosophy of this issue, that we should just open the borders up to everyone and she's 100% sure it's going to be great, don't you want to slap that ****** silly? I do. She is 100% sure of her awesome plan without testing it out even a little bit. I want to see her beat with a bat, but I can't cause they'd call me racist, and you know the rest.

So we agree that the people claiming 100% clairvoyance as to what will happen with whatever plan SHOULD be killed, but we can't kill them, and we're going to have to patiently explain to them that testing things out before we know for sure is the way to go, yadda yadda yadda.
Selling a conservative approach to this isn't going to be easy. To remain prudent and sensible and constantly be looking at the system and how it works and refining it so we can get rid of the government inefficiency that we all hate- it's going to take some doing.

So- the Cliffs of the big picture:

1. We've got a ****-ton of stupid people
2. We have to get people to read more, and **** less. Or have less babies. And eat less.
3. We have to be patient with those that don't understand.
4. We have to constantly work and check and work and check and check again that what we're doing is efficient, and in our interest.
5. Our American freedoms and liberties must be preserved.

Wall of text, but I think those are the points we agree on. Solutions I will try to completely **** up my retarded understanding of those here next time. The important thing is that I'm trying though. Always trying.

edit: there are going to be a lot of orthographical mistakes in there, as I typed it out stream of consciousness type deal. I hope some of the THIS IS AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH people will help me out with the proofreading of it, apologies in advance.
=)
I hate to do this to you after you wrote that wall-o-text but I am going to have to agree with you while disregarding all your points.

I can now see why you said I was missing the bigger picture. I didn't see it at the time because I was on the defensive and replying to posts with much haste without giving much outside-the-box thought.

My comments in this thread are largely, if not completely, directed at the new AZ law.

As I said, this law will not fix US illegal immigration, but it WILL help with AZ illegal immigration. Any illegal[-flight will almost completely be to other US states and not back to Mexico.

The bill is to the best interests of Arizona residents but not to Cali, New Mex, Col, Utah or Nev. Those states will see a sudden influx of illegals, but since there are already so many there it will hardly be noticed.

If every state in the Union were to adopt this law or if it were to be ENFORCED at the federal level, then we might see a change in the problem with illegal immigration on the Federal level although I-29 would be packed with mini-vans all the way to Canada.

I do believe that the 5 points of cliffs you gave are valid. I don't necessarily agree because being a believer in binary thought I don't think of things as "way of life", "patience" and "preservation".

I just want the illegals to go away. The legal immigrants can stay here and feel welcome by my at least.

If legal immigration changes our way of life then so be it. The way of life for the initial settlers changed dramatically which the influx of immigrants of different nations.

It is only illegal immigration that bothers me. I know the current immigration system is convoluted. As I said earlier I was invited to be part of that process by sponsoring an immigrant who married a US native born citizen. I am glad it takes a long time, some money and some commitment to become a US citizen as an immigrant. I believe those that go through that entire process respect the institution of US citizenship more than even those that were born citizens.

The illegals are ****ing up the system. Many, not most, are convicts and we don't need anymore of those in the US. We have more than our fair share of criminals.

The illegals are taking advantage of the system. Many will work hard to get government assistance (obtained legally or not) so they don't have to work at all.

The illegals are changing our way of life. Many Mexican illegals come from abject poverty most of the time. That means they are disrespectful of property rights, other laws and how citizens generally take care of their properties. Have you viewed poverty in Mexico? It is full of refuse and dilapidated homes. Illegals routinely bring blight with them because they don't know any better. Legal immigration can also cause this but to a less extent because there are fewer of them.

So to wrap it all up.

Illegal aliens are criminals and are breaking the law. I support their prosecution and punishment.
Legal immigrants are A-OK in my book. I will welcome them and help them adapt to our multi-faceted culture.
 
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Ezlpo
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Old
224 - 04-25-2010, 06:33
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
You tell me. How many dollars do you think we spent on her? How many dollars do you think we earned off of her parents?
Since her parents were not lawfully in the US they would have likely had jobs that were paid under the table. No federal or state income taxes would have been collected.

Because they work low-wage jobs they didn't make much to spend so the state and local governments could get their sales tax. As mentioned, they purchase second-hand items (there is nothing wrong with that) so if when they do buy clothes or furniture the sales taxes collected were minimal.

Hell, I have witnessed many times a hispanic worker behind a cash register not charging a hispanic for goods or services supplied by the business the hispanic employee did not own. No taxes are collected in that manner.

Hispanics are also really good at knowing where to go to get handouts. Now even if the family wasn't on welfare, food stamps, WIC they could still show up at cheritable organizations that do not require ID to receive clothing or food. Now those same organizations are CONSTANTLY crying they need more donations because they just don't have enough to help all that show up. If the illegals were gone they just might have enough.

I don't have a dollar amount as to how much that family spent in taxes or how much free **** they received. But even $1 would be too much when there are US citizens that could have benefited from it.
 
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Ezlpo
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225 - 04-25-2010, 06:45
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
You keep beating the drum on "they're criminals" but I want you to tell me what social harm they were doing and what social good was accomplished by spending thousands of dollars on prosecuting them.
What harm are illegals doing to Arizona?

They take some jobs away from citizens. I believe there are plenty of natural born citizens and legal immigrants to do the jobs the illegals do. Some illegals have white collar jobs after all. Many legal immigrants will still do landscaping and janitorial services.

Illegals don't respect their surroundings. They might even be worse than blacks in this manner. The difference here is the blacks are US citizens so we HAVE to deal with their blight. We don't need to ship in dirty ****ers to litter and contribute to ghetto-fabulous lifestyles.

Some illegals are criminals. We absolutely have enough criminals in the US. We don't need to ship in more. I am talking about felonies such as **** and murder.

Many illegals come from a ****ed up nation where they are used to living in a **** hole. When they move to the US they are so happy to live in squalor they think they are on top of the world. Many illegals live by spending at little as possible and then sending their money outside of the country to their families. This causes problems for the value of the dollar.

Need more?
 
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Ezlpo
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226 - 04-25-2010, 06:52
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
They also pay billions. Particularly in Arizona with our regressive 9%+ sales tax.

In fact, they pay more than they receive (how weird!)
I disagree with this. In Arizona it is my opinion the majority of the illegals are of hispanic background.

As it has been pointed out, many will buy second-hand where they pay much less for their goods/services. There isn't a problem with that but it reduces the amount of sales tax they pay by a significant margin.

I firmly believe illegals cost the state far more than they put in. Hell, there was one illegal woman that caused a car accident with a school bus and her injuries were such that the hospital bill for her was more than $6 million. I think it might have been as high as $17 million but I forget the actual figure. That in of itself takes a lot of sales tax to pay back.

Then there are the mothers of the anchor babies. The state can't say no to a citizen so it gives money to the child by way of the mother. The mother AND the child benefit from that money but it isn't reported as payments to an illegal because the money was to help the child who was born in the US.
 
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Ezlpo
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227 - 04-25-2010, 07:00
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Alt weeklies do good journalism all the time. Who advertises in them doesn't mean anything about their reports.


Increasing costs at all will reduce demand and destroy jobs (that would, in this hypothetical, be held by citizens).

How you can fail to understand this boggles my mind.
Free Alt weeklies do not always do good journalism. They write the direction their readers and advertisers want to read. If the New Times was supporting Sheriff Joe who receives a large majority of votes each time he is up for election the paper would go under.

If a restaurant hires 1 illegal to wash dishes and that illegal is deported so the restaurant hires a US citizen the price of the food will likely be unaffected.

Illegals don't work for $3 an hour. They work for minimum wage or better almost in every case. Hiring a US citizen will not raise the cost of labor to the point the price of the good or service supplied by the employer to a prohibitive level.

If a company does have a labor force made up of mostly illegals paying far below market value for those jobs then I have no problem with that company going out of business. Their business model was flawed and a more law-abiding company can fill the hole left by the defunct business.
 
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solokatz
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228 - 04-25-2010, 07:08
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I live in AZ and illegal immigrants broke into my house and stole my xbox 360. Well.. I don't know if they were illegal but they were mexican.. probably
 
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Ezlpo
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229 - 04-25-2010, 07:17
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Ezlpo, I suspect you will keep arguing with me forever and any time I point out the idiocy of spending thousands of dollars to prosecute people for working in this country you will just say, "They're illegally here!"
I am quite prepared to continue to argue with you. My argument is not always going to be "they're criminals" but it will be the heart of my position. By being illegal they don't have the access to jobs or services a citizen does. Because of that they are more apt to turn to crime to fulfill their needs/wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
So I have a question. What social good is accomplished by prosecuting these illegals? What social good is accomplished by awarding only 5,000 low-skilled laborer visas per year (when there is quite clearly sufficient demand from employers for far more)?
I answered this in a post I made minutes ago. Please reference that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
What is the justification and purpose for having a law that these people are breaking? And is that purpose sufficient to justify the preposterous amounts of money we spend on the enforcement of it?
The justification is that an open border policy would be the downfall of the US. Look at how terrible Mexico is with all its poor people. Do you want the same for the US?

We have a finite amount of resources here in the US. We can;t support all the poor people in the world or even all the middle class people of the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
After all, laws are supposed to exist in order to promote the social welfare. What welfare is being promoted by the immigration status quo?
The immigration status quo is to allow immigrants to come to the US and continue breaking the law and be a leach on the US welfare system. It is the law that all children be entered into an educational facility. There are schools that needed to hire spanish speaking teachers because the illegal immigrant children were obviously not doing well in an English speaking class.

When an illegal goes to the emergency room and doesn't have insurance they are treated. They might have to wait a while, but they are treated.

Illegals use other public services such as police and paramedics as needed, yet pay no state or local tax except sales tax which is not enough.

Anchor babies receive welfare benefits which support the illegal parents.

Edit: We are obviously at a standstill (we were when we started but we wanted to make our points) in that you can't believe I could be so blind, and I believe the same about you. In true un-TW fashion we avoided calling each other a ****** and had a intellectual conversation that accomplished nothing. You are not in the slightest swayed my way, and I am not towards yours.

I will end with this.

We are a nation of laws. One main reason the US is as awesome as it is can be pointed to our laws. There are a lot of flaws, but it is the best system we have.

If we stop enforcing one law then we run the risk of not enforcing many laws. A law you see as superfluous someone else will see as necessary. It is for that reason we are a representative democracy so one person's ideals do not rule (as in a oligarchy or tyranny).

You may see immigration laws as stupid/unnecessary/immoral/whatever, but I do not... and I have the law on my side. In regards to the new AZ law, I have 70% of AZ voters on my side.
 
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Last edited by Ezlpo; 04-25-2010 at 07:27..
absent
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230 - 04-25-2010, 07:35
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fartiusstinkius
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231 - 04-25-2010, 07:57
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
If you are in running clothes and IF you are stopped you simply provide your name and they run it on their computer. If you are running in AZ you probably live in AZ so when your pic comes up with a valid driver's license you are free to go.
I really hope they just wouldn't stop anyone who's running for exercise. I'd be pretty pissed if I had to stop to answer these questions when I'm trying to keep up a tempo.

Though I'm also biased by the opinion that I'd be pissed if a cop stopped and asked me for that **** randomly in any situation (other than if they pulled you over for an infraction driving or something).

edit: I was too lazy to read the last sentence in your post:

Quote:
This law is not about the gestapo tatics of randomly stopping someone simply to see their "papers"
I really hope what you say is true and that it isn't enforced unless some sort of crime requiring identification (not jaywalking or some bull****) occurs.
 
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Last edited by fartiusstinkius; 04-25-2010 at 07:59..
Ezlpo
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232 - 04-25-2010, 08:09
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Originally Posted by fartiusstinkius View Post
I really hope they just wouldn't stop anyone who's running for exercise. I'd be pretty pissed if I had to stop to answer these questions when I'm trying to keep up a tempo.

Though I'm also biased by the opinion that I'd be pissed if a cop stopped and asked me for that **** randomly in any situation (other than if they pulled you over for an infraction driving or something).

edit: I was too lazy to read the last sentence in your post:



I really hope what you say is true and that it isn't enforced unless some sort of crime requiring identification (not jaywalking or some bull****) occurs.
It is my belief cops will not be stopping anyone that us not committing a crime. They don't have the time to rouse anyone not committing a crime. Also, this bill does not give cops a free pass to just see someone and just go mess with them because they think they might be illegal or they want to know legal status. The same rules apply regarding a cop detaining you or asking questions about what you are up to.

There will be more info coming out in June for sure as the news outlets will surely get some bullet points on how this will be enforced. I would guess it will be remarkably less invasive than the detractors would like us to believe at this point.
 
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FngrBANG
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233 - 04-25-2010, 10:06
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Originally Posted by absent View Post
Yeah so a few months back this 4-year-old kid got hit by a pickup truck while he was waiting for the school bus. The kid died almost instantly...almost.

The driver of the truck was an illegal immigrant with no driver's license, the truck wasn't registered with the state, and there was no inspection sticker.


But that's o.k.

Illegal immigrants are harmless.
 
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Swensonator
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234 - 04-25-2010, 10:35
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Because white people never run over anyone
 
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FngrBANG
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Old
235 - 04-25-2010, 10:38
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Because fewer illegal immigrants would be running over innocent bystanders if immigration control were enforced.
 
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Snaps
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Old
236 - 04-25-2010, 10:39
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Originally Posted by Ksera View Post
Essential, in Arizona, You will need a valid Arizona DL, a Passport, your birth certificate or your immigration papers in Arizona with you at all times. If a cop request your papers, and you can not provide any of those, they will arrest you.

Out of state DL can be deemed unacceptable on a case by case basis determined by the cop.

Welcome to mother Russia.

For the constitutional rights the GOP is claiming the Democrats are stepping on, this one take the bait... Got to love the double standard.
this post take the bait
 
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Swensonator
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237 - 04-25-2010, 10:47
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Because fewer illegal immigrants would be running over innocent bystanders if immigration control were enforced.
fewer white people running over innocent bystanders if we got rid of all white people.
 
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Snaps
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Old
238 - 04-25-2010, 10:48
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fewer white people running over innocent bystanders if we got rid of all white people.
And a really ****ty anarchic city.
 
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FngrBANG
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239 - 04-25-2010, 10:48
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fewer white people running over innocent bystanders if we got rid of all white people.
Including the white illegal immigrants?

you are a filthy racis
 
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Swensonator
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Old
240 - 04-25-2010, 10:52
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and you're drinking pretty damn early.

or did you never stop last night?
 
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