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absent
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201 - 04-25-2010, 03:56
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I love how ptavv supports neo-Slavery.
 
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ptavv
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202 - 04-25-2010, 04:01
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my preference is quite clearly for immigration reform that allows them to reside here legally and be paid normative wages (ie not below the minimum wage)

barring that i am fine with them being here illegally and am against criminalization and/or deportation of them

in any case i've spent far too much time not studying and posting in this thread

i'll return tomorrow when i have some time
 
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Ezlpo
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203 - 04-25-2010, 04:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Hey wow, weird, more absolutely false drivel to justify your xenophobia.

Illegal immigrants on welfare: fact or fiction? | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
I read this short article.

I have two points to make.

1. Many illegals still the identity of a US citizen so they can work and receive benefits. If they didn't do this how would they live at all illegally in the US?

2. The illegal parents of children born in the US still receive money because the US does not believe in allowing a US citizen to go hungry. To answer this I am going to quote one of the paragraphs from the article you posted.

Quote:
A 2007 analysis of U.S. Census data by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities makes clear that it is the U.S.-born, U.S.-citizen children of undocumented immigrants who are eligible for programs such as Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program
(SCHIP). The analysis found that, between 1995 and 2005, the share of low-income, non- citizen immigrant children (either undocumented or legally present) who received Medicaid or SCHIP dropped from 36 percent to 30 percent.
This tells you right there that illegal immigrants with US citizen children are receiving food and healthcare benefits.

Children that are carried or walk across the border also get the benefit of a US education which costs money.

So yes, I still stand by my post that billions are spent on illegal aliens each year.
 
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absent
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204 - 04-25-2010, 04:03
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So what do you think will happen to the United States when you legalize the 20something million brown mongrels who will then proceed to bring in their wives, 15 children and parents?

You're looking at 50-60 million people, if not more.

Give me your vision for a Better America.
 
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ptavv
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205 - 04-25-2010, 04:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
This tells you right there that illegal immigrants with US citizen children are receiving food and healthcare benefits.

Children that are carried or walk across the border also get the benefit of a US education which costs money.

So yes, I still stand by my post that billions are spent on illegal aliens each year.
They also pay billions. Particularly in Arizona with our regressive 9%+ sales tax.

In fact, they pay more than they receive (how weird!)
 
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ptavv
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206 - 04-25-2010, 04:09
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Originally Posted by absent View Post
You're looking at 50-60 million people, if not more.

Give me your vision for a Better America.
it'll be no worse than when the germans tried to colonize Pennsylvania

in terms of % of total population, latino immigrants are fewer than the german immigrants of ben franklin's day
 
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ptavv
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207 - 04-25-2010, 04:10
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since the economic realities of immigration (that it's a net positive for the US) don't seem to matter

lets put a human face on it (this article is filled with anecdotes and lots of background, but this one is sufficient if you don't have the attention span to read it)

Return to Sender: The Feds, Fueled by Local Anti-Immigration Hostility, Are Draining Talented Undocumented Youth into Mexico - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

Quote:
Virginia Gutierrez was a straight-A student who graduated with honors from North High School with a 4.2 grade-point average, securing multiple private scholarships to ASU. Her dream was to be a doctor. Instead, she was stopped for a broken taillight and deported to Mexico in 2007, before she was able to start college. Last her friends heard, she was living with her grandmother in Chihuahua, looking for work. Her crime? Entering the United States illegally when she was 9 years old.
 
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Ezlpo
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208 - 04-25-2010, 04:14
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OMG you quoted the Phx New Times. LOL. There are ads for would-be hookers in the back of that rag.

But to look at the article you posted from the New Times it says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Times (LOL)
Out of the 2.2 million U.S. farms counted in the 2007 Census of Agriculture, only a quarter reported hiring workers. And out of the 1.42 million farmworkers reported in the Census Bureau's 2008 American Community Survey, foreign-born Mexicans make up only 35 percent of the population, and just 10 percent of the food preparation and service industry. A 2006 report by the Economic Research Service of the United States Department of Agriculture found that nearly 39 percent of every dollar spent on food en los Estados Unidos went to labor costs.
Only a quarter of the farms surveyed reported hiring workers.

In a different study, 1.42 farmworkers were foreign-born Mexicans and made up 35% of the population. Please note that not all of those were illegal.

In 2006 the USDA found that 39 percent of every dollar spent on food went to labor costs. Well 100% of the labor for food production or service is from illegal immigration.

So if illegals are being used on farms or food service it will not increase the cost of food by much, if at all.

So you see that article means NOTHING. The New Times is full of **** and many TWers will see that from that single article.
 
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Ezlpo
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209 - 04-25-2010, 04:21
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
Remember how you wanted ICE to start enforcing the law?

Robert Hildreth: ICE wasting time, money in sweeps of workplaces | Viewpoints, Outlook | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
We pay taxes to in part prosecute the criminals. Illegals are criminals. If you asked any tax payer where they would like their money to go "getting rid of criminals" would be near the top.

So they spent $14k to prosecute those criminals. How much was spent on welfare and/or unemployment benefits for those out of work that would have accepted those jobs at that kosher plant in Iowa.
 
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Ezlpo
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210 - 04-25-2010, 04:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
since the economic realities of immigration (that it's a net positive for the US) don't seem to matter

lets put a human face on it (this article is filled with anecdotes and lots of background, but this one is sufficient if you don't have the attention span to read it)

Return to Sender: The Feds, Fueled by Local Anti-Immigration Hostility, Are Draining Talented Undocumented Youth into Mexico - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times
LOL, the human face of a criminal. You could write the exact same article about a murderer or rapist by changing the crime in that article. Illegal is illegal. She found out she was illegal at 13 but as an adult decided to risk it all and have a family. She knew by having a family as an illegal alien she could be sent back to Mexico at any time, but she chose to risk it anyway.

Quote:
Virginia Gutierrez was a straight-A student who graduated with honors from North High School with a 4.2 grade-point average, securing multiple private scholarships to ASU. Her dream was to be a doctor. Instead, she was stopped for a broken taillight and deported to Mexico in 2007, before she was able to start college. Last her friends heard, she was living with her grandmother in Chihuahua, looking for work. Her crime? Entering the United States illegally when she was 9 years old.
Blame her parents, not the government or the LEOs. Sucks to be her but as we all know LIFE ISN'T FAIR.

How many dollars did taxpayers spend to support her illegal ass once she came to the US? **** her and her parents for doing that to a child.
 
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Last edited by Ezlpo; 04-25-2010 at 04:28..
absent
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211 - 04-25-2010, 04:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
it'll be no worse than when the germans tried to colonize Pennsylvania

in terms of % of total population, latino immigrants are fewer than the german immigrants of ben franklin's day
This makes no sense at all. Race is not just some coat that these squat mongrel brownies take off when they enter the U.S. Have you ever considered why Mexico is Mexico and not... the United States? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it's inhabited by Mexicans? Mexicans will turn the United States into another Mexico, just like ******s have turned Atlanta, Detroit & Chicago into miniature Africas.
 
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Gandalf
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212 - 04-25-2010, 04:43
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Ya know, when all else fails, bring out the "omg they're just trying to make a better life for themselves" crap.

Just watched a nice widdle natgeo show on illegals. The ones coming across the border through a coyote usually pay about 3-4,000 dollars.

Obviously money isn't the issue. Must be something else. Hmmm...what could it be?
 
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ptavv
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213 - 04-25-2010, 04:46
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Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
Ya know, when all else fails, bring out the "omg they're just trying to make a better life for themselves" crap.

Just watched a nice widdle natgeo show on illegals. The ones coming across the border through a coyote usually pay about 3-4,000 dollars.

Obviously money isn't the issue. Must be something else. Hmmm...what could it be?
yeah

and most people spend thousands of dollars on college degrees for some other reason than to earn more money in the future

i know med students have plenty of money (med school costs 150k+ these days) and spend all that money without any future hope of higher earnings

seriously, are you mentally retarded? i can't figure out any other explanation for someone actually posting something as stupid as this in public
 
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Last edited by ptavv; 04-25-2010 at 04:49..
ptavv
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214 - 04-25-2010, 04:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
Blame her parents, not the government or the LEOs. Sucks to be her but as we all know LIFE ISN'T FAIR.

How many dollars did taxpayers spend to support her illegal ass once she came to the US? **** her and her parents for doing that to a child.
You tell me. How many dollars do you think we spent on her? How many dollars do you think we earned off of her parents?
 
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ptavv
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215 - 04-25-2010, 04:48
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
We pay taxes to in part prosecute the criminals. Illegals are criminals. If you asked any tax payer where they would like their money to go "getting rid of criminals" would be near the top.

So they spent $14k to prosecute those criminals. How much was spent on welfare and/or unemployment benefits for those out of work that would have accepted those jobs at that kosher plant in Iowa.
You keep beating the drum on "they're criminals" but I want you to tell me what social harm they were doing and what social good was accomplished by spending thousands of dollars on prosecuting them.
 
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ptavv
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216 - 04-25-2010, 05:15
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
OMG you quoted the Phx New Times. LOL. There are ads for would-be hookers in the back of that rag.
Alt weeklies do good journalism all the time. Who advertises in them doesn't mean anything about their reports.

Quote:
In 2006 the USDA found that 39 percent of every dollar spent on food went to labor costs. Well 100% of the labor for food production or service is from illegal immigration.

So if illegals are being used on farms or food service it will not increase the cost of food by much, if at all.
Increasing costs at all will reduce demand and destroy jobs (that would, in this hypothetical, be held by citizens).

How you can fail to understand this boggles my mind.
 
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ptavv
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217 - 04-25-2010, 05:18
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Ezlpo, I suspect you will keep arguing with me forever and any time I point out the idiocy of spending thousands of dollars to prosecute people for working in this country you will just say, "They're illegally here!"

So I have a question. What social good is accomplished by prosecuting these illegals? What social good is accomplished by awarding only 5,000 low-skilled laborer visas per year (when there is quite clearly sufficient demand from employers for far more)?

What is the justification and purpose for having a law that these people are breaking? And is that purpose sufficient to justify the preposterous amounts of money we spend on the enforcement of it?

After all, laws are supposed to exist in order to promote the social welfare. What welfare is being promoted by the immigration status quo?
 
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Vanster
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218 - 04-25-2010, 05:31
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
Vanster, I respect you as a person. I do not always agree with you but your worldly experience and education makes your opinion valued.

I certainly do not always agree with you.

I respectfully ask you which part of the bigger picture I am not taking into account.

I am a guy that lives in the black and white. It is or it is not. I like rules. I am not always following the rules but I accept the punishment when I do not.

Thank you, Vanster, for your reply.

Ezlpo
I'm a fan of binary as well. It makes sense when so much other bull**** is flying around. It's on, or it's off.

This, my friend, is what we math-lovers would call a chaotic system. The zeros and ones are complicated beyond what I'm able to mathematically work out. I'll give you the framework of what I know, and ask you to bring your insight to bear on it.

I passionately want to preserve the way of life I now enjoy, and I do not want it disturbed by an influx of people that don't understand the U.S., and the way we do things here. But enough about Texans. *rimshot*.

This big ship of fools we call earth is going to be here long after yours and my grandchildren are dead, no matter what the green weirdos say. The earth has no need of our help, it's going to be just fine. The problem of immigration, basically, is that we have a bunch of people that don't want to work, or try, or make a contribution, that want some pie anyway. None of us think they deserve pie if they ain't gonna work. On these points, I think we're square and in agreement.

One of the problems is that this ship has a couple of holes in it, and the idiots on board are yelling to those closest to the hole that they better get their **** together, because their end of the boat is sinking. You and I need to teach the yellers that they're being really stupid, and while we're doing that, we need to fix the holes in the ship AND while we're doing that, we need to keep the boat sailing straight and everybody paid and fed. All of this has to be done while taking care of the stupids. Holy ****, just describing what we have in front of us makes me scared.

The United States must preserve this way of life. That is certain. The freedoms (and that includes no search and seizure without a warrant) that we have must be preserved. Immigration can't muck that up. What I want is to educate. I want people to look at the United States and see that totalitarian systems of rule are corrupt and wrong and they don't work, I don't want them to look at the United States and just want to steal what we've worked for. Unless they understand why we do things the way we do them, they're just going to want to steal it. So it's a given that we are going to have to invest resources in educating them. Even bandaids cost money, and this is a pretty big wound. We need language and civics classes for people coming in, and we need to better educate our own in matters of reading, writing and arithmetic. We have to get smarter, and we have to get thinner. And we have to stop ****ing so much, or if we are gonna **** a lot, we gotta have some birth control. There are too many of us. Americans are dead if we don't.

Also, the smart folks (like me and thee) understand that there has to be a division of labor. SOMEONE is going to have to sweep and mop the floor. Someone is going to have to take out the trash, and sculpt our yards, and empty the ****ters, because those are things that have to be done. Right now, companies are illegally hiring illegal aliens to do these things, paying them ****-wages for doing it, but get this- the aliens are happy to do it for that price, and the companies have citizen stock-holders that have an interest in that company's profit margin, and are tacitly (sup fngr) making sure that the company continues to pay illegals so they can remain as successful as they have been. What the ****? And then they go to the media and complain about all the Mexicans. They're unscrupulous bastards, and they need to be punished, but when we start doing it, those companies and businesses are going to suffer. They will have less labor getting done, their overhead is going to go up, and they have to start paying American wages to American workers. When their profits decline, the American stockholders aren't happy. It's a ****ing mess.

This is turning into a wall of text, but you said you wanted it as black and white, so I'm attempting to give you that. There is an awful lot of black and white here, and as far as solutions, I'm uncertain. I have some things in mind that sound good to me right now, but I'm not convinced they're going to go great. I'm not the amazing Kreskin, I can't predict the future- I'm ****ty at predicting anything, really. There is another problem: we've got people yelling out all kinds of solutions and then they have the gall to say they are 100% sure that their solution is going to work. again, WHAT THE ****? How are these people able to tie their own shoes in the morning? Nobody knows exactly what will happen. When Whoopie Goldberg sits on The View and says her persnickity little philosophy of this issue, that we should just open the borders up to everyone and she's 100% sure it's going to be great, don't you want to slap that ****** silly? I do. She is 100% sure of her awesome plan without testing it out even a little bit. I want to see her beat with a bat, but I can't cause they'd call me racist, and you know the rest.

So we agree that the people claiming 100% clairvoyance as to what will happen with whatever plan SHOULD be killed, but we can't kill them, and we're going to have to patiently explain to them that testing things out before we know for sure is the way to go, yadda yadda yadda.
Selling a conservative approach to this isn't going to be easy. To remain prudent and sensible and constantly be looking at the system and how it works and refining it so we can get rid of the government inefficiency that we all hate- it's going to take some doing.

So- the Cliffs of the big picture:

1. We've got a ****-ton of stupid people
2. We have to get people to read more, and **** less. Or have less babies. And eat less.
3. We have to be patient with those that don't understand.
4. We have to constantly work and check and work and check and check again that what we're doing is efficient, and in our interest.
5. Our American freedoms and liberties must be preserved.

Wall of text, but I think those are the points we agree on. Solutions I will try to completely **** up my retarded understanding of those here next time. The important thing is that I'm trying though. Always trying.

edit: there are going to be a lot of orthographical mistakes in there, as I typed it out stream of consciousness type deal. I hope some of the THIS IS AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH people will help me out with the proofreading of it, apologies in advance.
=)
 
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Last edited by Vanster; 04-25-2010 at 06:24..
MaxxCarnage
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219 - 04-25-2010, 05:49
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Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungreatful, Ignorant Piece of ****
"It's going to change our lives," said Emilio Almodovar, a 13-year-old American citizen from Phoenix. "We can't walk to school any more. We can't be in the streets anymore without the pigs thinking we're illegal immigrants."
By the way, I already explain how they don't pay **** in sales tax considering they barter nearly all of their services, keep money exclusively in Mexican business and street vending, and send a huge portion of their money back to ****ing Mexico bolstering that **** holes economy. Not all of them have Social Security cards, fake or otherwise. In this job market, **** you if you think whites would take the jobs.

There are good ones, there are bad ones. Not my fault they were born in a **** hole.

They come to our country and protest our laws and call us racists for standing up for our own rights instead of un****ing their own piece of **** country. The ones that do pay tax, STEAL ****ING IDENTITIES to do so! I don't give a **** if they are doing nothing malevolent it's still ****ing illegal.
So the immigrants don't bring crime? The ****ing human smugglers they use to get them across the border certainly ****ing do.
Having a weak/open border has and would continue to allow the drug and human traffic to run rampant.
NWS
http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/137290-1/...g_suburban.jpg
NWS
OPEN UP THOSE BORDERS HELP THOSE POOR PEOPLE
Note the Arizona license plate, brolie

Some help, yes. Some are productive, yes. We could find people to do those jobs, we could keep them cheap. Somehow our unemployment rate could MAYBE be sorted out a bit with those jobs... just maybe. Secondly, people coming into the country illegally and crapping out anchor babies, or throwing their kids into school, immediately start using benefits they haven't been paying into. Say 75% have stolen Social Security cards, that leaves 4 MILLION ****ING PEOPLE that are still ****ting out kids, generally more than one, paying next to nothing in taxes as I stated, and reaping benefits.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's xenophobic to want to see ENGLISH billboards in America. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want to see AMERICAN flags. I don't think it's unreasonable to be pissed off that these rat bastards BERATE and INSULT our country when they aren't even here legally, to be pissed that they RAVAGE border ranches, stealing, damaging property and even KILLING ranchers that try to help them...
There are good and there are bad. I don't think cutting a bunch of social security checks, medicare and medicaid to all the elderly immigrants would go unnoticed on our budget...

To stop the bad we must also stop the good. Plain and simple, SECURE OUR ****ING BORDERS, don't open them.
Offer secure, state sponsored work programs for the lower portion of the state for a sort of work to citizenship procses, clean up the immigration process itself, and get the ****ing illegals out and let them come back the right ****ing way.
They can track us down and ****ing wring our nuts for measily tax discrepancies yet these people arrogant parade around with no consequences? **** that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKsoqYP9UMI
 
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Last edited by MaxxCarnage; 04-25-2010 at 06:09..
ptavv
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Old
220 - 04-25-2010, 06:14
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Wow.

I've never ignored anyone on this forum, but you're tempting me.
 
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