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Ezlpo
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181 - 04-25-2010, 04:17
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I must have 20 posts in this thread. I have not been called out for obi craziness though so I will continue to support the position that legals are welcome, illegals are not.
 
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ptavv
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182 - 04-25-2010, 04:17
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replacing illegal immigrants who work in landscaping and agriculture would result in a shrinkage of those workforces and/or much higher consumer prices for them

to name only two industries, the story is the same in most other low skill illegal immigrant jobs

you can keep beating the drum about unjust and broken laws all you want, but it just makes you a xenophobic racist
 
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Vanster
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183 - 04-25-2010, 04:21
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Ezlpo, I want you to see a bigger picture. You're not dumb, so it would be a waste to try and insult you. But I think you're not seeing the entire picture. If you see everything, I think you're going to put this together and change your mind. I don't know that, but I think you will.
 
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Ezlpo
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184 - 04-25-2010, 04:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
replacing illegal immigrants who work in landscaping and agriculture would result in a shrinkage of those workforces and/or much higher consumer prices for them

to name only two industries, the story is the same in most other low skill illegal immigrant jobs

you can keep beating the drum about unjust and broken laws all you want, but it just makes you a xenophobic racist
There are enough legal immigrants to fill those low-wage jobs. There is around 8% unemployment in Arizona. That is 560,000 peeps. Reports indicate there are 460,000 illegals in Arizona. Landscapers makes more than minimum wage and probably more than unemployment insurance checks.

Those positions WOULD be filled if all the illegals left. Also, not all illegals are lawn mowers. Some have made it to very respectable positions in excess of $50K/yr.
 
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ptavv
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185 - 04-25-2010, 04:25
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I'd encourage anyone who actually cares about the economics of this to read this book:
Amazon.com: Let Them In: The Case for Open Borders: Jason L. Riley: Books
 
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Ezlpo
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186 - 04-25-2010, 04:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanster View Post
Ezlpo, I want you to see a bigger picture. You're not dumb, so it would be a waste to try and insult you. But I think you're not seeing the entire picture. If you see everything, I think you're going to put this together and change your mind. I don't know that, but I think you will.
Vanster, I respect you as a person. I do not always agree with you but your worldly experience and education makes your opinion valued.

I certainly do not always agree with you.

I respectfully ask you which part of the bigger picture I am not taking into account.

I am a guy that lives in the black and white. It is or it is not. I like rules. I am not always following the rules but I accept the punishment when I do not.

Thank you, Vanster, for your reply.

Ezlpo
 
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ptavv
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187 - 04-25-2010, 04:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
There are enough legal immigrants to fill those low-wage jobs. There is around 8% unemployment in Arizona. That is 560,000 peeps. Reports indicate there are 460,000 illegals in Arizona. Landscapers makes more than minimum wage and probably more than unemployment insurance checks.

Those positions WOULD be filled if all the illegals left. Also, not all illegals are lawn mowers. Some have made it to very respectable positions in excess of $50K/yr.
it's much more complicated than that

to put it simply, many americans decline to participate in those jobs for sundry reasons
 
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Ezlpo
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188 - 04-25-2010, 04:30
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
it's much more complicated than that

to put it simply, many americans decline to participate in those jobs for sundry reasons
I agree there are many Caucasian Americans that would take those jobs. However, there are many Mexican Americans that are in the country legally that would take those jobs.

I for one used to do landscaping work when I was younger so I don't count it out as a possible job if I were down on my luck.
 
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ptavv
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189 - 04-25-2010, 04:30
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at the very least watch what Jason Riley (the author of that book I linked and an member of the editorial opinion board for the WSJ) had to say to colbert

Jason Riley Sells Stephen Colbert on Immigration | Indecision Forever | Comedy Central
 
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ptavv
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190 - 04-25-2010, 04:31
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
I agree there are many Caucasian Americans that would take those jobs. However, there are many Mexican Americans that are in the country legally that would take those jobs.

I for one used to do landscaping work when I was younger so I don't count it out as a possible job if I were down on my luck.
you are an idiot if you think this is a) true or b) a reasonable way to reach a conclusion

of course there are citizens who would take some of those jobs

but it would lead to higher prices and/or the loss of many jobs

there are not a sufficient number of citizens to take those jobs at low enough wages to keep prices where they currently are
 
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Ezlpo
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191 - 04-25-2010, 04:32
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
at the very least watch what Jason Riley (the author of that book I linked and an member of the editorial opinion board for the WSJ) had to say to colbert

Jason Riley Sells Stephen Colbert on Immigration | Indecision Forever | Comedy Central
I will watch that now and edit my post afterward.

Edit: Jason Riley says that between 1994 and 2005 the illegal immigration population doubled to about 12,000,000 yet violent crime fell by a third and crime against property fell by 26%.

Great, but out of those 6,000,000 illegals that entered the country during that time some of them are criminals and the US has more than enough of criminals already. We don't need anymore to be added by a fraction of the illegal immigrants (who are criminals the second they step into this country).

Hell, that is really the only claim he made. The rest is his opinion on a comedy show.
 
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Last edited by Ezlpo; 04-25-2010 at 04:43..
ptavv
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192 - 04-25-2010, 04:39
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you'd also do well to read this from the us chamber of commerce:

Immigration Myths and the Facts -- Behind the Fallacies
 
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ptavv
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193 - 04-25-2010, 04:42
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here's what the Cato institute says about legalizing immigration

the rest of the paper is good and ought to be read, but the executive summary of the paper is informative enough if you're lazy

Quote:
"This study finds that increased enforcement and reduced low-skilled immigration have a significant negative impact on the income of U.S. households," says the report, which uses an economic model called the U.S. Applied General Equilibrium to reach its conclusions. "Modest savings in public expenditures would be more than offset by losses in economic output and job opportunities for more-skilled American workers. A policy that reduces the number of low-skilled immigrant workers by 28.6 percent compared to projected levels would reduce U.S. household welfare by about 0.5 percent, or $80 billion.

"In contrast, legalization of low-skilled immigrant workers would yield significant income gains for American workers and households. Legalization would eliminate smugglers' fees and other costs faced by illegal immigrants. It would also allow immigrants to have higher productivity and create more openings for Americans in higherskilled occupations. The positive impact for U.S. households of legalization under an optimal visa tax would be 1.27 percent of GDP or $180 billion."
 
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ptavv
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194 - 04-25-2010, 04:45
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Remember how you wanted ICE to start enforcing the law?

Robert Hildreth: ICE wasting time, money in sweeps of workplaces | Viewpoints, Outlook | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
Quote:
"ICE spent $5.2 million on a kosher-meat-packing-plant raid in Postville, Iowa, or about $14,000 per immigrant," writes Hildreth."Added to this cost was ICE's unprecedented decision to prosecute the immigrants criminally rather than in immigration court. It meant millions of extra dollars spent on keeping the defendants in jail. Had the immigrants been tried in immigration courts, they would have been deported at little expense."
Quote:
"In a factory raid in New Bedford, Mass., ICE put 200 workers, shackled head to toe, on chartered airliners and flew them to Texas prisons at a cost of $200,000, only to fly 40 back at additional cost when they were granted release on bail.
"For all this expense, taxpayers might expect that ICE caught some bad guys -- terrorists or criminals posing a real threat to us. Alas, they found only workers, many undocumented but otherwise harmless."
 
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ptavv
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195 - 04-25-2010, 04:49
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If you think that immigrants would prefer to be here illegally I'd like to inform you of some history:

Obama and the 'Amnesty' Trap - WSJ.com
Quote:
Nearly seven decades ago, the U.S. faced labor shortages in agriculture stemming from World War II, and growers turned to the Roosevelt administration for help. The result was the Bracero program, which allowed hundreds of thousands of Mexican farm workers to enter the country legally as seasonal laborers. In place from 1942 to 1964, the program was jointly operated by the departments of Justice, State and Labor. As the program was expanded after World War II to meet the labor needs of a growing U.S. economy, illegal border crossings fell by 95%. A 1980 Congressional Research Service report concluded that, "without question," the program was "instrumental in ending the illegal alien problem of the mid-1940s and 1950s." Apparently, the law of supply and demand doesn't stop at the Rio Grande.

Beginning in 1960, the program was phased out after it faced opposition from labor unions. And since nothing comparable emerged to replace it, illegal entries began to rise again. The point isn't that we need to resurrect the Bracero program, or that guest-worker programs alone will stop illegal immigration from Mexico. But a Bracero-like program with the proper worker protections ought to be the template. And expanding legal immigration ought to be where the Obama administration channels its energies.
 
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Ezlpo
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196 - 04-25-2010, 04:50
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
you are an idiot if you think this is a) true or b) a reasonable way to reach a conclusion

of course there are citizens who would take some of those jobs

but it would lead to higher prices and/or the loss of many jobs

there are not a sufficient number of citizens to take those jobs at low enough wages to keep prices where they currently are
whoops!!

I meant to type that "there AREN'T many Caucasian Americans that would take those jobs."

Sorry about that.

I can also believe that there would be higher prices for the services illegals provide. That is unless the unemployment office took a harder stance on sitting at home and collecting a paycheck from the state.

Even if things stayed the way they are now Caucasians would work landscaping and janitorial jobs. I have witnessed this myself.

If they wouldn't and the cost of janitorial services or lawn services increased by 10% that does not mean all consumer products would increase by 10%. It isn't as if the cost of landscaping and janitors makes up 100% of the company expenses.

Let's say that the cost of products goes up 2%. That sucks sure, but I would rather pay that than the billions of dollars going towards the welfare of illegals.
 
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ptavv
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197 - 04-25-2010, 04:50
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
I will watch that now and edit my post afterward.

Edit: Jason Riley says that between 1994 and 2005 the illegal immigration population doubled to about 12,000,000 yet violent crime fell by a third and crime against property fell by 26%.

Great, but out of those 6,000,000 illegals that entered the country during that time some of them are criminals and the US has more than enough of criminals already. We don't need anymore to be added by a fraction of the illegal immigrants (who are criminals the second they step into this country).

Hell, that is really the only claim he made. The rest is his opinion on a comedy show.
Are you joking? Your crime argument may as well say, "We shouldn't let anyone in."

If that's truly your point of view there's no point talking to you because you don't understand anything about economics or the philosophy upon which America was founded.

PS I already tackled the "crime" argument here
Quote:
The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America***8217;s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the ***8220;null hypothesis,***8221; namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.
 
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Last edited by ptavv; 04-25-2010 at 04:57..
ptavv
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198 - 04-25-2010, 04:53
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
That sucks sure, but I would rather pay that than the billions of dollars going towards the welfare of illegals.
Hey wow, weird, more absolutely false drivel to justify your xenophobia.

Illegal immigrants on welfare: fact or fiction? | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
Quote:
MYTH #3: The nation spends billions of dollars on welfare for undocumented immigrants.

FACTS: To the contrary, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any "welfare" benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive.

As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public "welfare" benefits -- ever.

Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years
before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.

A 2007 analysis of welfare data by researchers at the Urban Institute reveals that less than 1 percent of households headed by undocumented immigrants receive cash assistance for needy families, compared to 5 percent of households headed by native-born U.S. citizens.

A 2007 analysis of U.S. Census data by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities makes clear that it is the U.S.-born, U.S.-citizen children of undocumented immigrants who are eligible for programs such as Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program
(SCHIP). The analysis found that, between 1995 and 2005, the share of low-income, non- citizen immigrant children (either undocumented or legally present) who received Medicaid or SCHIP dropped from 36 percent to 30 percent.
 
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Ezlpo
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199 - 04-25-2010, 04:53
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Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
If you think that immigrants would prefer to be here illegally I'd like to inform you of some history:

Obama and the 'Amnesty' Trap - WSJ.com
I do not believe immigrants would want to be here illegally.

I did not read the article at all because I do not believe the illegals want to stay here illegally.

I will read your other articles, but give me some time as I am sure there will be many points I want to contest.
 
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ptavv
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200 - 04-25-2010, 04:55
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Originally Posted by Ezlpo View Post
If they wouldn't and the cost of janitorial services or lawn services increased by 10% that does not mean all consumer products would increase by 10%. It isn't as if the cost of landscaping and janitors makes up 100% of the company expenses.
On the Cost of Illegal Immigration; and Cold Showers - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times
Quote:
A 2006 report by the Economic Research Service of the United States Department of Agriculture found that nearly 39 percent of every dollar spent on food en los Estados Unidos went to labor costs. Conclusion: Any pay raise for illegals toiling in the factories in the fields and kitchens would undoubtedly affect the bottom line of farmers and restaurateurs, which would force them to raise prices to recoup the cost
 
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