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-   -   [discussion] solutions to skiing / hiding (http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691032)

hyung 08-04-2018 01:26

[discussion] solutions to skiing / hiding
 
lt has an unwritten rule of "don't ski with the flag, don't hide with the flag". when people follow this rule, the game is very fast paced and fun. when people don't follow this rule (or decide to bend it ever so slightly), a) the other team feels cheated, or b) the other team follows suit and the game degenerates into a boring stalemate.

we used to have the same problem with the chaingun. a couple years ago we nerfed the **** out of the chaingun and it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal anymore, even with netset letting people set terp to 0 and pft to whatever they want. in my opinion, our change to the chaingun was entirely positive, now people who want to chain a lot can use it and it doesn't feel anywhere near as unfair. it still works effectively if the player wants to stay in the air, and it still works effectively at forcing players to the ground.

what can we implement to solve the skiing / hiding problem? i think the problem has several parts:
- skiing during standoffs
- hiding during standoffs
- taking the "long way" home on a cap

some ideas:
- hot potato - players can only hold a flag for a certain limit (1 minute? 2 minutes?). then they... die? it gets returned automatically?
- tether to home stand - players with a flag must be within some distance to their home stand (say 400 meters?). players breaking this tether have a limited time to get back within tether range (5 seconds)? after a grab, players have a fixed amount of time to get within tether range (1 minute?)

bad ideas from other tribes games:
- permanent iff on capper

what do you guys think? this has always been something that bugged me and it seems like we should be able to come up with a decent mechanic which solves it, without changing the game too much. does this even bother anyone else or is it just me?

Lyon 08-04-2018 02:15

hiding and skiing is for scum. that being said both of these options seem like there could be significant impacts on game play that we'd have to test out.

hyung 08-04-2018 02:57

sure of course there are downsides, no idea is perfect

rotochop 08-04-2018 09:48

i am so happy you're going to fix a game that has been broken for 20 years.

ur a fukin genius

TypicallyTerrible 08-04-2018 19:36

Quote:

- hot potato - players can only hold a flag for a certain limit (1 minute? 2 minutes?). then they... die? it gets returned automatically?
This is something Arms of Telos did. If both flags are taken, a timer starts. After 10(?) minutes, both flags return to their base. Standoffs can still occur, though they will simply be on a timer. Of course, this might also encourage said capper to simply hide for 10 straight minutes anyways.

Ryez0r 08-04-2018 22:20

https://i.imgur.com/74WdWpE.jpg

LOL, I was bored and mostly wanted to play around in Photoshop.
Arbitrarily chose DS capping on BE on SH. Imagine the reverse scenario if BE is capping on DS.

Or don't, I'm not your Mom.

1. Calculate Midpoint between Flags
2. Create round 'Capping Boundary' based on this point. (Leave enough buffer for falling behind stand for a sec).
3. Once the player hits the main meat of the capping area, exclude the area nearest to the enemy base as well (for games of 5v5 and over).
4. If the Capper leaves the Capping Area, a timer will begin counting down, just like the mission boundary does currently.
5. If the timer expires, something bad happens. (Flag Returns, Capper Explodes, PermaIFFs happen, etc).
6. If the Capper returns to the Capping Area and shortly thereafter leaves it again, the timer they previously had will resume counting down. (Maybe the timer could replenish / deplete akin to how jetting does).
7. If the Capper stays in the Capping Area, GG, GOOD BOY, PLAY AS USUAL.

I don't know that this truly helps anything besides keeping dicks from hiding in the corners, or pulling a mun and riding the edges of the map all day long to be a prick, but I feel like maybe it would help a little. :P

hyung 08-05-2018 00:11

i think that's interesting. the tether point doesn't need to be the flag stand nor does it have to be different for each team. i do worry about having the tether point being in the center of the map since it would be somewhat arbitrary and something you'd have to mentally remember, whereas things like the stand are fixed and easy to identify on any map

Ryez0r 08-05-2018 00:37

UncrustableMod***8482; lel

Also think it would be a good deterrent if the area of the 'Capping Zone' dynamically grew or shrank in relation to your Hot Potato Timer.. so, eventually, if you don't want to be PermaIFFd or lose the flag all together, you need to get your ass inside the bubble for awhile, which may have shrunk as small as 100m in diameter. Kinda like how multiplayer works on Watch Dogs where eventually you're gonna get found because your bubble of acceptable hiding places shrinks.

wtf eat apples 08-05-2018 00:58

@TEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXU S

Flipp 08-05-2018 10:38

yall g0n receevn ya peepee s0ss iffin ya lykkit o not smdh lol :jester:

vamp 08-05-2018 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyung (Post 18969220)
some ideas:
- hot potato - players can only hold a flag for a certain limit (1 minute? 2 minutes?). then they... die? it gets returned automatically?



Auto drops the flag within whatever time limit is chosen, but cant pick it back up unless they respawn

Laughing-Stork 08-05-2018 18:41

I think some form of tether would be the best. The hot potato solution can be twisted(two players passing the flag back and forth to each other while hiding).

jjwtay 08-05-2018 23:16

you are all vaginas compared to me

jjwtay 08-05-2018 23:16

please change my title to the last great triber

Ryez0r 08-06-2018 07:56

If by vaginas you mean neighbors to the *******, can't argue with that logic -- when you're right you're right!

I'd also like my title changed while we're at it:
"The Present & Future Great Triber" should suffice.

Namaste seņor jj, gobless. :P

hyung 08-06-2018 13:53

another idea just to throw it out there - tether range provides a kind of return protection. holding the enemy flag within your team's tether range protects your team from being cheesed from skiing or hiding.

the tether range has two mechanics:
- lets your team return your own team's flag
- also protects your team from losing the flag if the other team is not within their own tether range

examples:
- team A and team B are in a standoff, both carriers on their own stand. A's carrier dies. since B's carrier is on their own stand, B's team can return the flag. (normal)
- both carriers are off in the boonies, and team A's carrier dies. team B's chaser can return their flag because A's carrier wasn't close enough to their own stand to benefit from return protection (normal)
- team A's carrier is on their own stand but team B's carrier is off hiding in the boonies. A's carrier dies but team B can't return the flag since team B's carrier out of tether range and A's carrier was within their own tether range, so they get return protection.(new)
- team A's carrier is off in the boonies gone on a long grab. team B touches team A's flag but drops it immediately near the stand they grabbed it from (still within tether range). team B can still return the flag whenever they want since the flag is within their own team's tether range. (normal)

downsides:
- this will make it wonky for chasers who get chase kills and want to return right away. there are a lot of edge cases here based on where it was dropped and the status of their own flag at the time. we would probably have to enumerate and smooth out these situations maybe with some kind of grace period or smart logic. maybe this return protection only kicks in if the capper is able to get home and "stamp" onto their own tether range for 5 seconds, say by passing to a teammate. once the flag is passed to a teammate in own tether range, the flag glows green and return protection is enabled.
- it might be hard to surface the information to all the non-flag carriers whether or not a flag in question can be returned. this could be especially important when dueling around a tether boundary. maybe the flag could glow red when it's out of tether range, green when it's in tether range, and some kind of in-between when it's close to the boundary.

some positives about this idea:
- its behavior is more consistent across maps of various sizes where the amount of time to get home can vary greatly. that is, cappers wouldn't give a **** about a 1 minute hot potato on dx but a 1 minute hot potato on spincycle would be a death sentence.
- if a team has its own flag under control, it isn't forced to play a certain way and can exploit an advantageous situation as much as it wants (a capper on a clean grab can still have their entire team d up and the capper takes as long and cheesy of a route home if they want. still rewarded for their situational advantage.)
- the flag carrier doesn't randomly blow up or drop the flag in the boonies. say a capper ends up in a long duel with the chaser and wins but blows up anyway cause they can't make it home. the chaser's job changes from get the return to simply stall the capper.
- the new mechanic encourages positive exciting behaviors rather than discouraging negative boring behaviors. it encourages people to pick up the capper (to "stamp" it or enable return protection). encourages people to fight near the stand to take advantage of return protection and also enable their offense to get returns.

i think this idea is kind of neat but requires a bit more thought. it sounds like it could be too much of an overhaul. could be a fun mini-game type if anything

Laughing-Stork 08-06-2018 15:43

That would prob confuse the heck out of the xp's and joe daddy's. Sounds cool tho.

kitteh 08-06-2018 17:12

I like the idea of being in x-radius around your own flag stand. Honestly the only thing I hate is when people ski around the entirety of the map. If you're just hopping between mid and your own base, I see zero problems with that. I find that to be somewhat strategic since most people just mindlessly go to the enemy base constantly.

hyung 09-19-2018 18:59

bump, hearing more complaints in game so more ideas are welcome

Groove 09-19-2018 23:47

u should do 2 oob grids one that knocks the flag off u immediately and another thats a hard oob


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