Random Number Generators - True or not?

Tribalbob said:
A) we're not discussing pi, we're discussing whether or not something is truly random

B) pi is predictable and follows rules, it's not random, and never will be. it'll be exactly the same each time you calculate it. the 3rd digit past the decimal will always be a 1. followed by a 5. etc. just because there's no numeric repeating patterns in the order of the digits, that doesn't mean pi itself doesn't follow rules and can't be predicted.
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Yes it does.

Randomness depends on patterns.

The result of the PI equation is a single pattern in and of itself, ergo is not random, however the numeric sequence contains no pattern (that we have determined as yet) and is therefore circumstantial proof that true randomness is possible.
 
Kiint said:
By observing you are determining the outcome however the observed information is random, unless you broke the observation and determined its pattern.

It gets all fucked up from here.
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I'm kind of confused...do you agree with me that my reasoning of the possibility of it truly being random is true? I thought you argued against that earlier, but you seem to be supporting what I was saying.

Praet said:
What would a "truly" random process accomplish?
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Well if there are no patterns to the outputs, it makes it much harder to find out what number you generated afterwards...so if you're maybe trying to encrypt something it makes it much harder to find out the original number. Of course there's still other ways to break the encryption.

Anyway I gotta hit the hay. Good night fellers. :zzz:
 
fartiusstinkius said:
I'm kind of confused...do you agree with me that my reasoning of the possibility of it truly being random is true? I thought you argued against that earlier, but you seem to be supporting what I was saying.
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I am merely playing both sides of the fence.

Well if there are no patterns to the outputs, it makes it much harder to find out what number you generated afterwards...so if you're maybe trying to encrypt something it makes it much harder to find out the original number. Of course there's still other ways to break the encryption.

Anyway I gotta hit the hay. Good night fellers. :zzz:
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ZING!
 
Praet said:
What about decryption though?
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You dont know much about encryption then judging by that comment.

Decryption is done with keys.

Breaking a key that is genuinely randomly generated would be impossible within any human timeframe.

Therefore the only possible way to decrypt would be to steal the key somehow (alot easier than trying to brute force crack it).
 
It seems to me like it's not predictable, which is all one of these machines really needs. True randomness is more of a philosophical question - we can't really know without being able to observe an entire system (ie, no outside interference. As far as I know, the only way to be sure of that is to watch every particle in the entire universe at once) with the same inputs repeatedly and see if it gets the same outputs every time.
 
OK ... quick crypto 101

You use a key to encrypt/decrypt information.

How that key is created is the "key" to cryptography.

The longer (larger) the key is the harder it is to brute force crack the information.

For example, how long do you think it would take to crack a key starting with a, then aa, then aaa (to a limit) if that key, for example was the King George Bible? Even though its known, how long would it take for the computer to create the king george bible from brute force?

The idea for a genuinely random source is that for cryptography it would be impossible to crack (given an infinite key - impossible) or with a large enough key so difficult that we wouldnt waste our time trying, as the universe would most likely end before it was cracked.

From there it gets more complicated.
 
fartiusstinkius said:
Care to explain your reasoning? Most interpretations of quantum mechanics I've looked into consider the detection (i.e. measuring) process to be random based upon the certain possible measurement values...

edit: This is a genuine question...I definitely ain't no physicist.
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This is pretty much getting into the holdup on quantum physics that gets really fucking confusing. Unfortunately it doesn't really make sense to anyone.

The typical example is when shining light through a slit having a detector at the slit will change the screen pattern of the light.

Basically the problem is that in order to detect something an interaction occurs between the photon and the detector. By making the detector extremely subtle it becomes apparent that the photon is interfering with itself when detected (or something like that...someone else could probably explain it better). But with an interaction occurring for the photon it will change the probability wave (can't think of the proper terminology) and thus add bias to the system.
 
Kiint said:
Quantum Random Bit Generator Service



So is it truely random?
Monitoring of an analogue generates source converted to pure 1's and 0's

Some purists would argue that it isnt, and that pure randomness is impossible (tbob) some would argue that this is good enough to match the humanly vague definition of "Truely Random"
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Supposedly quantum mechanics can be random, but personally I think it is simply a deterministic system that is too complicated for our current science/technology to predict.

Just because we currently can't predict something doesn't mean it is inherently unpredictable.
 
Simply answer is yes, most of the time. you run the small chance of a "false positive" on the Boolean circuit
 
Jagonath said:
Supposedly quantum mechanics can be random, but personally I think it is simply a deterministic system that is too complicated for our current science/technology to predict.

Just because we currently can't predict something doesn't mean it is inherently unpredictable.
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Kinda like God huh?

Nahh, lets not go there.
 
I should add though that in the pure sense it might not be random, but it will damn well work for anything that could have such a use.

There are methods used for generating random numbers (radioactive decay) but the problem has been in the time scale of creating those numbers (very long).

However the application of the apparent random numbers is extremely different than questioning the pure existance of a random number.

A number is considered random if it passes every single test for randomness currently available. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a purely random number.

In context of the original link, it probably will work, but it doesn't mean it's pure.
 
Kiint said:
Kinda like God huh?
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Kinda like when theists say infinite regression isn't possible and then you ask them what created god. Something illogical can't exist in a logical system, so why bother with the logical system in the first place.
 
Is it just me or do half of you need to take an intro physics class at a local community college?
 
I'm also calling bullshit on the developers.

I seriously doubt there is anything "quantum" about this.

"We use 'Quantum Random Bit Generator' (QRBG121), which is a fast non-deterministic random bit (number) generator whose randomness relies on intrinsic randomness of the quantum physical process of photonic emission in semiconductors and subsequent detection by photoelectric effect. In this process photons are detected at random, one by one independently of each other. Timing information of detected photons is used to generate random binary digits - bits. The unique feature of this method is that it uses only one photon detector to produce both zeros and ones which results in a very small bias and high immunity to components variation and aging. Furthermore, detection of individual photons is made by a photomultiplier (PMT). Compared to solid state photon detectors the PMT's have drastically superior signal to noise performance and much lower probability of appearing of afterpulses which could be a source of unwanted correlations.
Read more at the product page: QRBG121 / Random number generator / random bit / Non-deterministic random number / Hardware generator / Quantum Cryptography."

Translation: We're unemployed mathematics majors. We're really smart. Like, seriously fucking smart. You won't believe just how fucking smart we are. We can't actually prove that anything is random, since quantum mechanics is poorly understood and totally unproven even by smart people like us.

But this shit... this shit is *random*, man. Fucking random as. You couldn't predict this shit even with a calculator, trust us, we've tried. Three times even. Of course we can't understand it, let alone explain it in human terms, because your just so... well your just not smart like us. Did we mention we're fucking smart?

Just trust us, okay? This shit is random. We can't prove or explain it... but dude.. this shit is fucking RANDOM."
 
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