Goldrush 80% of the time Red Wins

seen this post at valves forums and its seems pretty accurate due to 2nd and 3rd stage of this map. some made a good point.

http://steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/roundwinpercentagebyteam. png

dr.awesome-"Boy, it sure is cOLD in here..."

No, seriously, we all know. Part of the problem is the fact that blue is never coordinated, and gold rush very much requires coordination to win. In addition, blue rarely uses all the side routes they can. Example: the mine shaft that gets you to the trench outside 3-3? Priceless, but almost unused. On top of that, because of the long walk from respawn on most rounds, a lot of servers will run fast or instant respawn, which tips the odds very, very heavily in favor of red. The map'll probably get balanced a bit, but the players need to improve too.

this sounds good too.
balzur-Forward respawn points in section 3 could help out a little. It's alittle painful having to walk that distance all the time. Even if they brought it up just a little, possibly to that enclosed building to the top right.

I think the second map is where most of the cockblock happens. WAY too many corners for engineers to fall back to for their sentries.

I think the second map is where most of the cockblock happens. WAY too many corners for engineers to fall back to for their sentries.

I think the 3rd map the last cap point is the worst. Hardly anyone goes down the shaft (like the article says). I die a little inside when I see 6 people crowded around that narrow strait just randomly firing far away then quickly falling back again.

I think the second map is where most of the cockblock happens. WAY too many corners for engineers to fall back to for their sentries.no, the 3rd part is much tougher for blu than the 2nd.

i love gold rush, and dont mind playing the 3rd section as blu, but it could def use some modifying. i dont like the idea of a forward spawn point, as i dont think the problem with the section is the long distance to the point (that's what teleporters are for).

the problem is the that the main route is very choked off and can be attacked from anyone/anywhere on red's side, and the alternative routes isolate blu players, making them easy to kill quickly. the main route could be opened up more, but adjusting the alternative routes for blu such that they provide more of an advantage for the offense would balance the last area and encourage strategies other than uber pushing through the main route over and over again.

AHHH coordination is needed to win? NO WAY?!!!!

I think alot of loss's come from this corner.
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4193/deadmanscornergd7.png

yeah hypno, thats a bad one. but lets be honest, the last room of the stage is always the hardest simply because its next to the enemy resupply and usually they have 2+ sentries up at all times. also, teleports help out offense a lot. :D

yeah hypno, thats a bad one. but lets be honest, the last room of the stage is always the hardest simply because its next to the enemy resupply and usually they have 2+ sentries up at all times. also, teleports help out offense a lot. :D

Also spies can't reach the sentries built up top and teams usually don't have the coordinate to concentrate fire at those sentries (or go around and shoot from the side).

Also spies can't reach the sentries built up top and teams usually don't have the coordinate to concentrate fire at those sentries (or go around and shoot from the side).

i've noticed these stalemates (win for red) usually happen when teams are very large.. eg 14v14+. at that point you've got so many engineers usually it takes more than one uber to clear all the sentries..

yeah in that section they place up to 5 sentry's in that location and its real tough to break, Ubered or not you can be dropping sticky's every were but you will not get them all. your best bet is to have a spy waiting and then sap away for the uber demo/soldier to clear as many as possible.

I think alot of loss's come from this corner.
IMG]http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4193/deadmanscornergd7.png[/IMG]

You guys must be playing with the shittiest players in the world. Stay the fuck away from 32 man servers. Any turret set up in that end can be out ranged by a soldier (demos can break line of sight on a lot of the ground turrets). There is no way that map is harder. Pretty much any team that is able to even GET to the thrid map, usually has their shit together and can steamroll red.

If I had to guess what my win % is as blu for the three maps, I'd say section 1&2 are around 50%, and section 3 is around 75%

Defense is easier to coordinate then Offense. Trying to get everyone together at the right moment and in the right place to push through a choke point like that is like herding cats sometimes.

It's just easier when everyone on Red can spawn right next to the point and basically just congregate and dump spam in the most obvious choke point in front of them. Doesn't take as much coordination... it just "happens".

Defense is easier to coordinate then Offense. Trying to get everyone together at the right moment and in the right place to push through a choke point like that is like herding cats sometimes.

It's just easier when everyone on Red can spawn right next to the point and basically just congregate and dump spam in the most obvious choke point in front of them. Doesn't take as much coordination... it just "happens".

one of my biggest gripes about TF2 is that the majority of servers have more than 24-26 player slots. to me, any game above 10v10 really isnt that much fun unless i want to rack up kills. too much spam really.

You guys must be playing with the shittiest players in the world. Stay the fuck away from 32 man servers. Any turret set up in that end can be out ranged by a soldier (demos can break line of sight on a lot of the ground turrets). There is no way that map is harder. Pretty much any team that is able to even GET to the thrid map, usually has their shit together and can steamroll red.

If I had to guess what my win % is as blu for the three maps, I'd say section 1&2 are around 50%, and section 3 is around 75%


I don't know about you but when they have 7 sentry's,4 demo spamming that corner i don't care who you are and that 75% is a load of bs. That might work in a 24 man server but not a 32 man. Ive been on teams that locked that corner down so hard it that they had a demo man sticky jumping over our D only to get sniped mid air. even the murder hole was defended so heavy that 2 ubers failed to push. If you have good engineers and demo that know what there doing that will be a auto win for red.

Well it comes down to the servers we play on, and not the map then. I play on servers that have caps on how many people can play a class, relative to the team size. There is no fucking way I'd play in a server where half of the team is a sentry turtling queer. There's no point in playing that, imo. Period.

As for 24vs32 man servers... 32 mans tend to attract players that rely on random kills by fireing explosive weapons into a large crowd and getting excited about a kill. I hate when people play a Team Coordination game like TF/BF and end up playing it like it was CS or Quake (ignoring the objective and just running around aimlessly). With a smaller team size, less players sit back and think "someone else will do it".

Well it comes down to the servers we play on, and not the map then. I play on servers that have caps on how many people can play a class, relative to the team size. There is no fucking way I'd play in a server where half of the team is a sentry turtling queer. There's no point in playing that, imo. Period.

imo, any tactice (all out sg turtle) has a counter-tactic (skill spies/demo men). getting people to actually act against a specific tactic is a whole other issue.

well, in Hypnosis's scenario, I highly doubt spies would be able counter that. Thanks to the last patch, there's no shortage of pyros running around, burning every teamate they come across, just to be safe. Not to mention, the sheer volume of random explosions in a 32 man server's choke point.

You're right though, there definately is a counter to every tactic. Eventually you'll get to a point where a certain # of engineers becomes impossible to break in the given amount of time in the round. Hence, I play on servers where that sort of thing is capped (usually 3 engineers/pyros for a team of 12).

Anyway, to get back on topic... The 'red wins 80% of the time' statement really doesn't reflect an imbalance. If anything, it shows that the map is fine the way it is. For blu to "win" Gold Rush, they have to win 3 consecutive maps. If the 3 sections were even for both teams, then blu would have a 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 chance to "win" Gold Rush. Which is basically a 1 in 8 or 12.5% chance to win all 3 in a row. That graph shows that blu "wins" about 17% of the time, which is pretty fair as an average of all games played.

It's also hard to compare it to other maps, since it's the only Payload gameplay type in TF2. CP and CTF maps are usually identical for both ends. As for the 'one team has to run all the way from the beginning' point: that's a two way street (except for red at the beginning map 3-3).

Also, I thought this was pretty interesting:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Atreides/pl_goldrush_deaths.jpg

Granted, map 1 is played 100% of the time, while the others aren't.

The hot spot on map one is the natural-selection point of the map. That choke point weeds out a failure in team play rather quickly.

The hot spots are pretty much exactly where I would predict them to be though, no surprises there.