new news about raids in wotlk

You people assume because there is less people the encounters will be infinetely easier. ZA proved to me that, that is not the case. Those were challenging encounters and it had a great feel to the dungeon. I dont see why this wont be the case with the 10 mans in lich king. The amount of people i see in ZA loot is pretty low, especially compared to Karazhan loot and maybe even Gruuls.

You know where I stand when it comes to raiding. I don't cry because I'm hardcore, and I don't cry because I'm not hardcore. I'm concerned with overall content put out like ZA and Karazhan.

If they still keep making solid instances, I'm all for this idea. But don't try to sell me with 10 man BT and calling it a real instance. Takes away from the overall of the game without the karazhans and ZAs of the world, or even the mags/gruuls.

I just think it frees them up to put out more dungeons in general. So while there may not be that awesome 10 man only, there may be an awesome 25/10 in its place. Which in my mind is really no different at all.

Also they are going to have gruul like encounters. Malygos is either a 1 or 2 dungeon boss. They also have something in dragonblight which is a one boss fight that changes which boss you fight each time. Kind of like the arena in BRD.

I miss AQ type instances, bring those back IMO.

I just think it frees them up to put out more dungeons in general. So while there may not be that awesome 10 man only, there may be an awesome 25/10 in its place. Which in my mind is really no different at all.

How would that free them up?

They're creating the 25s ANYWAY. Now they have to test and set up 10s out of those 25s, which takes away more time from the ZAs and Kara's of the world basically, or even the MgTs.

And the only true example we have of this is MgT/Heroic MgT. Kael'thas is quite dumbed down from TK. I'd hate to see 10s with that type of content is all. And if it's a whole new experience, you're like "WTF, this isn't what we killed in 25 last week."

I don't know, kind of goes against lore too, is another thing.

Heroic 5 vs regular 5 is also much different than going from 25 to 10 as well.

they should make it so that the 10 man version is proportionally harder than the 25 man version. in other words each person in the 10 man should have more responsibility.

ive always been a fan of smaller group, greater challenge in any game, not just wow... its more of an elite special forces team feeling where every role matters rather than a clusterfuck that relies on everyone to behave in a narrow robotic fashion and individual roles matter less.

i understand that blizzard wanted to cater to the lotr epic battle mentality. this explains 40 mans pre-xpac. however reality set in when people realized epic battle in a movie != epic battle in a game so they dropped the max to 25. this change is the next step.

of all the 25 mans ive done, i enjoy za far more. not that the 25 mans werent fun either.

i fucking hate ZA

What are you talking about? They have to make new goemetry, textures, code, animations, effects, and everything else for each new dungeon. So instead of having separate teams working on a 10 man dungeon and a 25 man dungeon they can just have one team working on the dungeon.

As for play testing, I would assume they will set up the 25 man dungeon and tune that first. Once properly tuned they will scale it down to 10 man. With the basic idea of how the fight works in mind I would think it would take considerably less time to tune the 10 man rather than tuning an instance made only for 10 people. So yes it may take them longer to make one dungeon but I don't see how it will take longer than making a 25 man dungeon and a completely separate 10 man dungeon.

What are you talking about? They have to make new goemetry, textures, code, animations, effects, and everything else for each new dungeon. So instead of having separate teams working on a 10 man dungeon and a 25 man dungeon they can just have one team working on the dungeon.

As for play testing, I would assume they will set up the 25 man dungeon and tune that first. Once properly tuned they will scale it down to 10 man. With the basic idea of how the fight works in mind I would think it would take considerably less time to tune the 10 man rather than tuning an instance made only for 10 people. So yes it may take them longer to make one dungeon but I don't see how it will take longer than making a 25 man dungeon and a completely separate 10 man dungeon.

That's what I mean. So, if they planned on doing all that new coding for new 10 mans, they can just not do that anymore, and just do 10 man of 25s, meaning less overall content (on the type of instances like ZA and Kara). They have to spend time on the 10s of 25s too. I like changes of scenery once in a while. I still enjoy going to ZA once in a while or Kara. I don't want to raid BT 25 for 2 nights, and on an off night, go to BT 10 is what I mean. :p

I guess there will be less overall raid dungeons but I think there will be more 25 and 10 then there currently is because of sharing.

I guess there will be less overall raid dungeons but I think there will be more 25 and 10 then there currently is because of sharing.

Yea, I understand there will probably be more overall dungeons, but like I said bro, killing Kael the other night was cool as shit. Killing him gimp in 10 mans probably isn't. They'd need to do a shitload of testing probably to tune him to be as hard in 10s as in 25s. And by setting loot for 10s to be inferior to 25 man loot, he probably has to be easier by Blizzard's history.

come on adren you know its a good idea, dont you guys ever wanna see BT? It seems like these changes are almost designed for guilds like yours to allow access to all the content without having to be hardcore.

and i dont think it would hinder the amount of instances at all, why would it?

come on adren you know its a good idea, dont you guys ever wanna see BT? It seems like these changes are almost designed for guilds like yours to allow access to all the content without having to be hardcore.

and i dont think it would hinder the amount of instances at all, why would it?

Except that we're already in BT?

Well i know you guys just downed Kael, just seems like it would add a lot more options to Raid night for guilds of Skillz involvement level

Well i know you guys just downed Kael, just seems like it would add a lot more options to Raid night for guilds of Skillz involvement level

We were 3/9 BT, and 4/5 Hyjal before we decided we wanted to go back just for the sake of finishing T5 content.

It doesn't really effect us in terms of 25s. We do the same as others, we just do it slower than world first guilds. So we do spend a lot of off nights for our more hardcore PvE'ers doing 10s because they want something to do.

i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.

i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.

i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.


i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.

We were 3/9 BT, and 4/5 Hyjal before we decided we wanted to go back just for the sake of finishing T5 content.

It doesn't really effect us in terms of 25s. We do the same as others, we just do it slower than world first guilds. So we do spend a lot of off nights for our more hardcore PvE'ers doing 10s because they want something to do.

I just think at that level it would be fun to be able to do 10 man clears of BT while you have less, but more focused, people online.

I never really got into 25 man stuff because i never really liked the nature of groups that size. I think with 10 mans available im far more likely to spend time in pve content

I just think at that level it would be fun to be able to do 10 man clears of BT while you have less, but more focused, people online.

I never really got into 25 man stuff because i never really liked the nature of groups that size. I think with 10 mans available im far more likely to spend time in pve content

That's my argument with this whole thing really. Is doing a dumbed down version of Kael (like in magister's terrace) really the same as doing the epic version which happened to be very cool?

Unless they make the 10 man content equally hard for 10 people and give the same loot, you're playing a dumbed down version, which really doesn't allow you to "see end game content" anyway. It does but it's watered down. I suppose if people are cool with it, that's fine by me because I'll still get to see the 25, albeit slowly.

I mostly see this as Blizz's way of saving some money, getting rid of some designers/writers so they don't need to intricately make ZAs and Karas.

i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.
i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.
i play solo and can't see high end stuff they should make kara and za and ssc soloable just so i can see the content. after all i pay the monthly fee. basically it is an xtreme of what people are saying here but in the end it is what ur saying.

That's my argument with this whole thing really. Is doing a dumbed down version of Kael (like in magister's terrace) really the same as doing the epic version which happened to be very cool?

Unless they make the 10 man content equally hard for 10 people and give the same loot, you're playing a dumbed down version, which really doesn't allow you to "see end game content" anyway. It does but it's watered down. I suppose if people are cool with it, that's fine by me because I'll still get to see the 25, albeit slowly.

I mostly see this as Blizz's way of saving some money, getting rid of some designers/writers so they don't need to intricately make ZAs and Karas.


I imagine they will still make it very difficult on a 10 man level but i guess thats something we will just have to wait and see.

I just see it as a better solution than nerfing the content to make it more widely available to 25 mans