Breaking away from the pentatonics!

Sorry! I know I just made a thread, but I felt this was completely unrelated and worthy of its own.

I've been playing for years and understand most of the basics. I have a hard time getting away from the pentatonics (minors/blues). I constantly experiment with the basic scales to start building up and learning notes that will accompany them and so I can start doing some better improving and so on, but I still cling to the box shape. I don't want to be Eric Clapton - he does it well enough on his own.

Does anyone have any good ideas for getting away from the pentatonics? Other scales to start learning? Any words of wisdom?

Help! I need somebody!

I did the same thing for a while when I was first learning scales. I think it depends on what type of music you like; if you tend to like blues-based rock, well, pentatonic is where it's at.

I got into prog rock and hard rock, and this took me in the direction of the rest of the modes. I did a lot with mixolydian and dorian at first, then got into phrygian, and I still play in that a lot. But since the pentatonic scale is minor-based, I still use it a shitton.

One of the ways to get into these other modes is to play your bluesy stuff with a minor scale. It's shaped the same as pentatonic with just a couple of extra notes anyway.

Mode Master: Guitar Modes and Scales Computer (http://www.mearstech.com/ModeMaster_com/default.htm)

That modemaster is way too much to take in. Start slower.

:shrug:

yeah that's what I thought

we can all post links you know

Guitar Grimoire books are great but you have to be motivated to learn, the book is very dry.
http://www.guitargrimoire.com/CircleLarge.jpg

yeah that's what I thought

we can all post links you know
You want to learn other scales, but don't want to learn modes when that is the next logical step. The site I linked is a good resource, and I figured would be more helpful than me telling you to learn some modes. Don't be a dick about it because you don't understand it yet, I was just trying to help.

see
even that's better than just posting a link
anyhow you want me to learn modes, I get it
thanks

Fire, you can't honestly be that stupid.


Mode Master: Guitar Modes and Scales Computer (http://www.mearstech.com/ModeMaster_com/default.htm)

the link says, mode master. If you don't want us to help you, then don't ask.

I think you missed my point.

I saw that he linked to modes. It's an enormous database of every single scale and mode for the guitar. It's a hefty pile to start from. I was hoping for a more down to earth explanation of how he or you as an individual veered away from the basic box pattern. If he had written "learn the basic modes" or anything it would have been more helpful. Does a teacher just hand a student a book of scales? Not a good one.

That was my point. Anyhow, thanks for the mode master link, again..it's a very useful tool that I already knew about. Anyway, didn't know this would start such a heated argument, I just wanted some basic pointers - if you don't have time to "discuss" the topic on a forum and just want to link it, well then, interesting approach

The site I linked is a good resource, and I figured would be more helpful than me telling you to learn some modes.
I don't know how you would come to that conclusion, that a billion scales to look at is more helpful to someone, but again I guess that's his own approach.

Agree to disagree?

Honestly the best thing to do is pick a mode, learn it, and solo within it for awhile till you have a good understanding of it. Incidentally, imo, the best way to learn a mode is in the. Whole Step Half Step manner, that way you don't have to learn it in every position. So that leaves seven modes to learn period, then you can move them wherever you want.

Don't listen to Minstrel he is an idiot.

That being said, the majority of modes/scales you will use depend on the type of music you play.
Learning mode patterns is great but they all have different sounds and applications. First figure out the difference between modes. The difference between the aeolian/minor mode and minor pentatonic scale in the same key is two extra notes. What you can now try doing is not dropping the pentatonic, as it would be impossible if you're so used to it, but rather, trying to mix the modes you learnt and the pentatonic. While you're playing your pentatonic box pattern, try to hit the extra notes you 'd find in the aeolian mode. Then from there continue.
You can also arpeggiate chords (practical for sweeping melodies) and tapping. The important thing is learning what chords you are playing over, and the progression. From there you can apply modes and more "advanced" compositional skills. Like if the progression is C maj-F maj and then G maj, you can emphasize the notes of those chords when they are playing. Or you can try to stick to one note pattern and see how the same thing sounds over the different chords. While you can really write out music, it takes some skill, experience and ingenuity, something you probably don't have seeing the thread you made. In other words, you need to create your music "by chance" by experimenting.
Does that help?

I am an idiot and he said "learnt". Ok faggot.

lol, this thread makes me warm and fuzzy :heart:
FireStorm, you said you understand the basics.. I thought you would know what to do with the Mode Master site. It's not like you need to learn every mode all at once, just start with one and use the computer to teach you the pattern. Pretty straight-forward, no? I'm not a teacher, and I'm not about to tab out a bunch of scales/modes for you (especially since that's what the link I sent does).
The way I learned is I would find out what modes my favorite guitarists used, by reading mags or searching the web, then I would practice and memorize the patterns. Hope that helps!

I am an idiot and he said "learnt". Ok faggot.

learnt - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/learnt)

It isn't incorrect dick sucker (see sig).

okay
fair enough
thanks for the advice everyone
lets all go chillout by the fire for awhile now

no worries, dave and I have a love hate relationship. He loves me, in a gay uncomfortable way, and I hate him cause he is a faggot.

Hahaha, shut up menstrual.
:heart:

There are a number of things you can do, even with pentatonic scales.

For one, try chromaticism within the pentatonic. If you know the next note you're going to hit in any pentatonic scale, you can tool around with interpolation via other notes around it before you get to it - obviously notes that are in the key/chord you're working in, but also notes outside of those scales, used as passing tones. In other words, you can create your own scales in a sense, but if you stick on the "outside" notes instead of using them to bridge known scalar patterns, it might sound terribly dissonant and wrong - so learn to use them as notes of movement or transition, not necessarily notes of duration or notes to sustain in a solo.

Slonimsky's book, Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns shows a number of these sorts of things, and gets into wild ideas like ultrapolation and infrapolation that Coltrane liked to use.

Also, learn your diminished scales (there are only 3) and whole tone scales (only 2).

You can alter a dominant chord (such as E7) to give it diminished qualities, like so: E7 (-9, +11, 13).

The basic E7 chord (the V in relation to A) in root position is just:

E (1), G# (Maj 3), B (5), D (min 7)

A popular jazz spelling of this chord might add notes and invert them (and omit the 5 entirely, as it adds little tonally to the chord) to look like this:

E7 (9, 13):
E (1), D (min 7), F# (9), G# (Maj 3), C# (13)

The change from the above chord to a diminished scale chord would go like so:

E7 (-9, +11, 13):
E (1), D (min 7), F (-9), G# (Maj 3), A# (+11), C# (13)

And right over this chord you can play a diminished (octotonic) scale:

E-F-G-G#-A#-B-C#-D-E (Note the pattern: half-step, whole-step, half-step, whole-step...)


FYI: You can't just do this sort of thing indiscriminately. There is some musical judgment and taste involved. If it fits, you use it. If it doesn't, you don't.

Whole tone scales work with augmented chords perfectly, although those are unfortunately rare in most modern pop/rock/blues music. Thelonius Monk used them all the time, same with the French composer Claude Debussy. They are hexatonic - just a scale composed solely of whole steps.

There are so many other things you can do - literally endless things. If I have the time, I'll write more, but experiment with these ideas for a bit until then.

Any questions or confusion, ask.