Why I'm not playing T2

Thanks Natural and IE for your replies.

Lets see what the future holds:)

I've kept up with most of this thread and it's been a good read for the most part, with many interesting viewpoints from many intelligent players, old and new, in the tribes community.


One particular point that I thought was interesting was KP's comparison between T1 and T2 teamwork. The on-your-feet split-second teamwork of T1, and the more pre-planned, prepared, and overall slower teamwork style of T2.

I think what he may be getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is an organic sense of teamwork in T1 that is missing in this so-called sequel. In T1 there is a degree of preparation, a game plan, but that gameplan is liable to be changed within a minute or two of an unexpected enemy strategy or unexpected turn of events. Players have to adapt quickly and effectively, and each individual has to have a certain feel for the tone of each match.

So far, T2 does not have that organic feel to it. Matches don't have that urgent presence, where each individual of each team feels the capacity to change the flow of the match with a split-second decision or a single, decisive play. Maybe this will come with time. Or perhaps T2 will never shed it's 'mechanical' skin, and it will only remain a decent, but not life-engulfing game.
For those of you who have spent unimagineable hours studying, practicing, and honing your skills to participate in something you love, you know what I mean.
-Kid A

Locke, I stick to my contention that I did not give a "pocket answer". There is a big difference between pointing out where T2 could be improved, and saying that "T2 is not and never will be like T1 was" (paraphrased).

The latter approach, which is what I was interpreting from a lot of the posts, has that "Back in the good old days" feel, like stories from grandfathers who lived through the great depression.

That is why I specifically said, "Mod it, change it, do whatever you have to do to enjoy it", at least that is moving forward. Hell, anyone can buy the engine from Garage Games for $100. (before people start flaming the engine, ask yourself if you could do any better)

That is much more constructive than trying to turn back the clock.

And Wulfen, I didn't do a 180... debate is good, and T2 isn't perfect, I was simply trying to point out that Tribes 1 had its fair share of blemishes and problems also, but all the "fond memory" posts seem to overlook that.

And why do people want this thread to die?
For the most part the discussion is good, and constructive.

I'm enjoying Tribes2. But I'm not dreaming about it at night. :confused:

Originally posted by |Oi|Spitfire
I hope to see a lot of the people that left Dynamix and went to Garage games or whatever make a Tribes kind of game that is more like t1...to satisfy all of us t1 crybabies.


I'd just like to take a moment to point out that Garage Games isn't a development house. They're a community and publishing facilitator.

BREATHE DAMN YOU BREATHE

Originally posted by [4M]Harlequin_Jester
Now for a few thoughts from HJ...

Natural: You were my Tribes hero. You were the person who I used as a benchmark in my latter half of my Tribes career when I switched from LD to capper. I respect everything you did in Tribes, and because of your skill and reputation I listen to what you say far more than the average poster, much like I would for Daunt or Bluenose, as I recognize their skill at my position. But... when you proceed to beat a long dead and oft-beaten horse, based upon 8-10 hours of post release experience, and then compare it unfavorably and nostalgicly to Tribes, I have to disagree with your stance. Two months into Tribes had nothing in common with the style of play found in the spring of 2000. Post-release Tribes was far slower in comparison than Tribes 2 vs Tribes is. I say give it time and play some scrimms or listen to a shoutcast before you pass judgement.

My Thoughts: Speed Yes, Tribes 2 is slower than Tribes. How much so? Not a great deal, but enough so that you notice it, most apparent on maps that are not exactly "skiing friendly". How much is the fault of the game and how much is a result of the map design? I'd say the greatest portion of the blame falls on map design. I know of one route on Archipelago where I never have to touch the water, but if I don't take that route, yes, it takes a while to get across the map. On Sanctuary, the map is large, there are several water filled bowls and depressions. If you do not pick the right route, yes, you will take over a minute to traverse the map. But let's compare...Damnation with Canyon Crusade. Arguably same distance apart, Damnation is probably a little further. I can get to the flag faster on Damnation than I could on Canyon Crusade. (Now, that's without the 10 second disk jump return route)

Skiing is slightly slower, but the speed/air friction cap isn't the issue. I can ski base to base in a Heavy in a lot of maps. I don't approach the ski cap except for on Quagmire. That map is very ski friendly, and I hit speeds there that I had on Rollercoaster. The problem is in the maps. You have the map editor. I know it's buggy, but you can deal, people already have.

Defense vs Offense: Tribes 2 is defensively biased. Larger maps, less ski friendly, more turrets. Tribes was offensively biased. Heavy Offense lent the offense a huge advantage over the defense. True, they have over corrected the HO, but they have also provided us with more options...the bomber and the tank, the cloak and a more effective sensor jammer pack.

But wait you say, I see all these 0-0 (or 3-5 TTF) games! I'm the only one going on offense against 15 on Defense! That's pub play. I blame that on general laziness and those newbie game guides as well as all those MA fest demos ;)

I'm always on offense on pubs because I can't stand waiting for that lone capper to come to our base so me and my 14 other buddies can pounce on him. I can cowboy a good deal even against "T1 veteran" opponents, it's a pub. Some maps I get shutdown, the defense is too tight for me to go it alone. But if I get one or two people I know to go with me, generally, we cap 9 times out of 10. (ex, Kyuss and I on Recalesence. I would sensor jam, and knock the HoF off the flag and then toss it to Kyuss who had an e pack, I would cover his escape and he would cap) Things like this prove that the defense is not God in T2. It's dominating now in the pubs, but it can be broken. In the scrimms I've played in and the matches I've shoutcasted, the scores wwere generally high, with the exception of one -K- vs Void game that finished 1-0 in favor of Void.

The defensive imbalance is a player caused phenomenon, generally relegated to pubs.

TeamWORK vs TeamPLAY: Tribes 2 is a deeper game than Tribes. I'm not knocking Tribes at all here. I loved the shit out of that game. But Tribes 2 is just so much fucking BIGGER. The maps, the bases, the vehicles are more important, and you have to cover greater distances faster in order to cap or defend. Because of this, you have more jobs like the Turret Farmer of Tribes. His was the only non combat position of Tribes. Because the areas you need to defend are larger, and the offense has tools to reduce your base and assets to rubble much faster than Tribes HO even did (Bomber, tank, 5 HO arriving at once in a Havok, etc), you need more than one repair guy/deployer. You'll need a repairer AND a deployer. You'll need a pilot, a tailgunner, a bombadier, and ANOTHER pilot for a Havok. Are these jobs as fun as say, capping? No, not to me. But is winning fun? Yes. Winning is always its own reward, just as in Tribes. Your teammates respect the fact that you're keeping all of their shit up, that you're getting them safely into the firefight. Isn't that what ladders are about? Respect and winning? In my book, winning a Tribes 2 game is that much more enjoyable because it's more like winning a football game then just winning a video game. You put more effort in, therefore the enjoyment and rewards for a win are that much greater.

So I say to you T2 nay sayers, give competition a try, go in trying to enjoy it. If you still don't like it, well, then go play Tribes and have a good time. I wish you a great time. But stop complaining about how much you hate Tribes 2, and how great Tribes 1 was, and that anyone who thinks different obviously sucked at Tribes 1. It's not true, and it's a dead horse that needs to be buried.


I'd also like to note that Disk Jumps and Plasma jumps work as means of gaining extra speed quickly

I think my opinion still holds and is pertanant and was lost in the spam.

:zzz:

:ftardkill:

Originally posted by Brain^Virus


Hiya Loggy. How was Atlanta? Care to hop onto ICQ?

Atlanta r0x0r3d. I'm on ICQ now, mang. :D

Originally posted by Brain^Virus


I'd just like to take a moment to point out that Garage Games isn't a development house. They're a community and publishing facilitator.

I'd also like to point out that GG is indeed planning to internally develop their own game.

Harlequin-I agree with you that pubs mostly suck because of all the newbies. I played on a really competitive 5150 pub the other day, and it was really a lot of fun. It was a completely different feeling than a T1 pub, and in certain ways it was better. Pubs only suck when all the newbies come in and pile up on the flagstand (which is why someone should make some new maps so thats not possible). One thing you have to realize, the last year of T1's existance-competition in pubs was excellent. You could always find some l33t people to play against, and THATS what made the pubs great...Not mindless HO base ownage, not minedisks, not cowboy capping (which is still possible i might add).

Even if speed was increased to Mach 3 in T2, many pubs would still suck because there are so many newbies.

If speed and action were indicators on how fun a game would be, then Ultra renegades would have been the standard. So i believe T2 pubs are missing something else-competition.

i think the pub experience is much worse in t2 then it was int1, that could be due to the fact that t2 hasnt been out very long thought.

what i like about t2 over t1:

I like the ground vehicles.

I love the fact that when a gen goes down so do the lights, seems like some maps if your inside when the gen goes down you find yourself running into walls cause you cant see, very cool.

I'm a old TF1(wow quake 1) player, i love the satchel charge.

I like the idea of turret barrels and putting turrets on walls.

hope thsi doenst start flaming but i like how D is stronger and harder to break. I like how the odds of one person by themself getting the flag is rare.

I dont know what to call it but i like how you can have fog in low valley areas, Archipelago, its cool looking.

IMO the scout/shrike is now something that is usefull.

Multiple grenade types.

I like that if i'm running to a flag in the field and some NME is about to return it i can shoot the flag and it will jump, makes me happy.

Way back on the first couple of pages people said 8 hours of playing was not enough to get a grasp on T2. Well, I can't remember forcing myself to play any game until I got to a point where it was enjoyable. Over 2 years ago when I first started playing T1 I was pitiful. I would get owned left and right, but it was still fun to play. I could spend a whole day just trying to get my first cap and not grow tired of the game. You shouldn't be forced to play in a league or do scrims or spend 8 plus hours before you can start having fun.

<p><font size="6" face="Arial" color="#FF0000">/Me jumps up and down on this thread trying to finally kill it.&nbsp; </font></p>
<p><font size="6" face="Arial" color="#FF0000">But no... the thread goes on as if it had a life of its own!</font></p>

Because like you, I just bumped it, bitch.

And Jawa, yeah, I agree, T1 pubs were fun by the spring/summer of 2000, and for the most part, you didn't see any one person owning it. Because it is a new game, the pubs are going to suck.

Last night on the POE server, I got so fed up with my team's play that I almost uninstalled. The map was Dessicator. I went out fast, killed a light guarding the gens, knocked out the gens, ran over grabbed the flag and capped, then chased down a =V= guy (Hemlock?) who grabbed our flag (cacti are a bitch aren't they?), all in one run.

For the rest of the game, our ff gens were down, and if I went on O, they would grab the flag and invariably cap. If I was on D, they didn't cap. I was yelling at my teammates to go repair our ff gens, and they just ran around in circles near the vehicle pad. (exec newbie.cs)

All the while, the other team, could make unimpeded cap runs and setup an airtight defense. (Of course, no one was attacking it)

Despite how shitty that was, I recognize that it was a pub 2 months into the game. A year from now, I doubt I'll see anything like that.

Originally posted by Phrozen
You shouldn't be forced to play in a league or do scrims or spend 8 plus hours before you can start having fun.

Unfortunately that's often the way it's going to be if you're dealing with a game that is similar to (but not identical to) a game you already know and love. It's a very different ballgame than approaching an entirely new game fresh.

I'm going to springboard into a more general point here, it's not a response to your post (any "you" below is just the "generic you") but that's an irresistible segue...

If someone doesn't want to put in the time to get adjusted to the sequel, they don't have to of course! But geez, don't go around pissing in everyone's Cheerios on the messageboards. Put in the time on the new game, or go find some other game. Intelligent criticism and discussion of the new game is cool, if you're actively trying to figure it out, but just laying back and spouting bile from the pedestal of your Veteranship is selfish and dumb.

It's interesting -- in a sort of depressing way -- how familiar the whole Tribes->T2 mess is looking to me, after having experienced the same thing in Quake->QuakeWorld->Quake2->Quake3, Unreal->UT, and Myth:TFL->Myth2:SB. In all those previous transitions, vets of the original game had what sounded like many very reasonable complaints about the sequel (along with several metric tons of temper tantrum of course). Six months or a year later, looking back on those complaints it's always apparent that much of their reasoning was incorrect in the context of the new game, and while some of it was borne out, there were also gameplay developments in the sequel that were improvements over the previous game, so on the whole the sequel turned out to be a worthwhile game too.

That's worth thinking about, IMO. Consider all the carefully thought-out and passionately defended opinions you have about ways in which Tribes 2 gameplay is broken. If this situation continues to stay on the same course as previous SequelGates, some or even most of those criticisms will turn out to be wrong. And there will be developments in Tribes 2 gameplay that you have no inkling of right now. Hard to believe, I know. :) But that's what I've always witnessed in the past. Of course, maybe this time things will be different... (Shyeah.)

Obviously, since a sequel game is different from the original, people will quite legitimately prefer one over the other -- even after taking the necessary time to "break in" the sequel (and break away from their expectations carried over from the original). But the people who chanted how the new game takes no skill, is a newbie game, blah blah blah (I swear these guys must all be reading from exactly the same script -- it's eerie, like Stepford Flamers) have so far been batting zero. No one says that you have to like all games the same. That would be ridiculous. No one says that sequel games don't often have certain kinds of problems (that issue is another huge post waiting to happen). But when a game eventually develops extremely competitive and nuanced gameplay enjoyed by thousands of people, I kinda feel that the folks who expended sooooo much energy viciously hating on that game and its players were misguided. And the "community" could have been a lot better without them poisoning the well.

Now, just to save everyone some trouble, here's my post count:


Date Registered: 04-03-2001
Total Posts: 42 (0.85 posts per day)


Yes, I played Tribes. But no, I was not in a competitive team. This is not me trying to browbeat anyone with my Tribes experience. I'm saying that I've seen this exact same ranting and raving about a game sequel in five previous situations... and how it turned out. Take it as you like.

gj johnny law, keep it up

I still think T2 is missing a heart.

They left out a whole community of players when they destroyed the ability to do HO effectively.

It takes sometimes upto several MINUTES to go across a map to an objective. :(

Thats boring.

Everything is slower.

Everything, even the lights feel heavier.

Gravity seems to have so much of an effect. It just wieghs everything down.

I guess maybe it just has to much realism in it.

I dunno.

Im playing it now because its the only game recently released thats any good at all.

JesseJames

I started leafing through my old game cd's to find something to pass the time till they fix T2. I'm playing resident evil 3 atm. Need I say more?