Hunter Question

Which is more inportant...crit chance or overall rap

somethin of an argument going on in my guild atm
im of the mind that i may have 100-150 less overall rap but then again i also have 12% higher crit rate

Guild leader is a hunter with like 1240 RAP MM spec and has roughly 14% crit on his range attacks

I on the other hand am Surival/m spec have 1090 rap but 26% crit chance for rap weapons.

I would think in long fights in say MC or AQ boss that the one who crits the most will put out the most dps.

anybody with experience in the difference in these builds?

WTF is "RAP"? Some new term for DPS? As for crit rate adding to DPS, it's weapon dependent. You need a really good bow/gun to complement the higher crit rate. A hunter with a lower hit rate has a very good chance of putting out more DPS with less crits if they have a better weapon than you do. So either work on... RAP? as it were, or work on getting yourself a BA epic bow/gun.

Ranged Attack Power

Oh, is that all it is? Man why do you people come up with silly shit like that? It's assumed if a hunter talks about attack power is obviously has to be ranged. And if he meant melee he should be banned from being a hunter.

Hmm... Well if you assume the same bow/gun, level, DPS, etc. then the RAP may eek out more damage. Usually because in general a normal attack will hit more often than crits, way more. But of course when the crits happen it significantly jumps your DPS.

I still think it's based on the weapon. More dmg per shot = larger crits. I know DPS isn't that end all be all, since DPS = dmg/spd. But here's a thing, is RAP based a per shot basis, meaning adding so much damage to each shot? Or does it simply add to DPS? Because if RAP adds dmg directly to each shot you may be able to out-DPS a crit+ person.

Unfortunately it's entirely dependent on weapon still. Whoever has the worse bow/gun will probably lose out.

WTF is "RAP"?


haha

And if he meant melee he should be banned from being a hunter.

Oh good lord. I try not to beat up on you, but man, it's clear from the rest of your post that a) you should not be the one disqualifying other people from being hunters, and b) you're not in any better position to answer his question than I am and you ought not to try.

wow apparently the tw wow boards arent any better than the ones on the wow website ...good christ

as for weapons i personally use the bloodseeker http://thottbot.com/?i=40260

and will eventually upgrade to the rhok'delar epic bow http://thottbot.com/?i=37747

right now the guild leader uses Mandokir's Sting http://thottbot.com/?i=51563

my thought being slower the bow the bigger my crits...aka one shotting mages. which ive done. just wondering who is better overall and if its just marginally a difference one way or the other...which in my mind it seems to be.

Mortal Shots will increase crit damage by 50%, I'm assuming you both have it, so your critical hits will be 250% of normal damage.

14 Attack Power = 1 Damage per Second

1240 RAP = 88.57 DPS
1090 RAP = 77.86 DPS

Now everything else should be equipment, but let's assume you both have the same quiver (attack speed) and weapon.

Let's use a 2.0 speed bow after item modifcation (quiver) that does 30dps.

Assuming every shot hits, before crits, in 200 shots you'd each do:
118.57 * (200)/2.0sec = 11857
107.86 * (200)/2.0sec = 10786

28 of his shots would be crits (14%), and 52 (26%) of your shots would be crits.

118.57 * 1.5 * 28 = 4979.94
107.86 * 1.5 * 52 = 8413.08

^ That's the cirtical bonus, not the total you'd see from a critical hit. We already claculated that before.

Now let's add:
11857 + 4979.94 = 16836.94
10786 + 8413.08 = 19199.08


You win.


Formulas obtained from: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Ranged_Attack_Po wer


Please double check my math -- it could be wrong.

wow apparently the tw wow boards arent any better than the ones on the wow website ...good christ

as for weapons i personally use the bloodseeker http://thottbot.com/?i=40260

and will eventually upgrade to the rhok'delar epic bow http://thottbot.com/?i=37747

right now the guild leader uses Mandokir's Sting http://thottbot.com/?i=51563

my thought being slower the bow the bigger my crits...aka one shotting mages. which ive done. just wondering who is better overall and if its just marginally a difference one way or the other...which in my mind it seems to be.

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't know if that slower = better logic works the same on ranged weapons as it does on melee. I would just look for one with a high dmg per shot, usually the one stat that one looks at first. DPS is simply damage/speed to get it's average, but I think that assumes you hit 100% of the time and doesn't take crits/special skills into accout. Which is most likely why people trust DPS less as less as they get closer to 60. By then you have a lot of skills/talents that would technically get you more DPS than what the weapon says.

As for that other nay-sayer about hunters, I played hunters since release and even to this day I see a lot of relatively incompetent hunters. Pre-20 I usually give them benefit of the doubt, new player, using a hunter 1st, whatever. But by the time you hit 30 you should have a general idea on how the class works.

Biggest one in my book so far was a lvl 45 hunter I did ZF with who would DW axes all the time. When asked why his isn't using ranged his response was "because my gun sucks."

I was in a ST group with a hunter. Here's how it started:

"I don't have any ammo, so I'm going to melee everything but the bosses."

...yea, that sucked.

Mortal Shots is only 30%, FYI.

Wife's Hunter is at 1344 RAP with 28.86% crit or so.

The value of Crit vs. AP is dependant on your current levels of both. If you're sitting at 1200 AP and 10% crit, 1% crit is a MUCH bigger upgrade than if you're sitting at 900 RAP and 30% crit.

That said, 150 RAP for 12% crit is a good tradeoff.

For my rogue, it's about 17 AP per crit (at 934 AP and 28% crit), and you're trading at a breakpoint of 12.5 AP per crit, and you're starting from a higher base AP, with lower crit, so it's definately a good "deal" so to speak.

In conclusion, you're right, he's wrong, you win at the internet.

Also, don't ever, ever, EVER listen to a god damn word that comes out of Feaang's mouth. He's the biggest idiot on this forum BY FAR, sucks at his own class, and has absolutely no idea how anything works. Just smile, nod, laugh, and otherwise pretend he doesn't exist.

Ok, cool. Let me redo the calculations, and use some differnt weapons for comparison.

For this test we will fire shots for 200 seconds.
14 Ap = 1 dps
Mortal shots is applied to both characters with a 30% increase, making critical stirke bonus value at 130% of a normal attack.

Weapons used:
Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44450): 3.4 Speed, 45.6 Dps
Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37747): 2.9 Speed, 44 Dps
Grand Marshal's Bullseye (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38260): 1.8 Speed, 46.1 Dps

These are all grouped pretty much on the same level, with good variation in speed I think.

And we will have 3 canidates:
A: 1240 RAP 14% crit (88.571 DPS)
B: 1090 RAP 26% crit (77.857 DPS)
C: 1000 RAP 10% crit (71.428 DPS)

The formula for total damage is as follows:
[(Ranged Dps + Weapon Dps)*(200/Weapon Speed)] + [(Critchance * (200/WeaponSpeed))*(1.3 * (Ranged Dps + Weapon Dps))]


((RDps + WDps)*(200/WS)) + ((C * (200/WS))*(1.3 * (RDps + WDps)))

This does not factor in misses or special abilities (imporved multishot, for example, which could factor in. Maybe I'll do that later).

Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting: 3.4 Speed, 45.6 Dps
A:
((88.57100 + 45.6) * (200 / 3.4)) + ((.14 * (200 / 3.4)) * (1.3 * (88.57100 + 45.6))) =
9,328.83071

B:
((77.85700 + 45.6) * (200 / 3.4)) + ((.26 * (200 / 3.4)) * (1.3 * (77.85700 + 45.6))) =
9,716.79212

C:
((71.42800 + 45.6) * (200 / 3.4)) + ((.1 * (200 / 3.4)) * (1.3 * (71.42800 + 45.6))) =
7,778.92


Wait a sec. I need to get into excel and make some graphs.

Weapon speed shouldn't be an issue here since attack power adds dps not straight damage per shot and over the long run crit chance will have the same percent contribution to your everall dps.

That being said, for pvp i sometimes skew towards crit a bit more than would be mathematically sound since burst damage is often more important there than in pve fights that last 10+ minutes.

Yeah, though much toil I found out it's linear so it doesn't really matter.

I too prefer crit. It's nicer to get lucky and over kill someone than it is to power them down over time.

Oh good lord. I try not to beat up on you, but man, it's clear from the rest of your post that a) you should not be the one disqualifying other people from being hunters, and b) you're not in any better position to answer his question than I am and you ought not to try.

if you've read any of his posts here, you'd know he isn't qualified to give advice to anybody on anything.

if you've read any of his posts here, you'd know he isn't qualified to give advice to anybody on anything.

Oh come on, im sure he might have some advice for maraudon princess by now, he worked pretty hard at that for about a month, i bet he's made a little progress.

I like how he spent 3 posts saying a when you get a better weapon you do more damage.

i was messing around on the hunter spreadsheet that was released a while back and found something really wierd for my current build. I have the exact same rap if i go TSA spec or surival spec...only in survival my i get more armor and about a 5% boost in crit amount....kinda eary.

thanks guys i new i was right