KK 2000 NL

***** Hand History for Game 3307539260 *****
$2000 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, January 03, 04:51:54 EDT 2006
Table Table 67619 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: mrmbooth ( $1136 )
Seat 3: Cheddarmon ( $2222 )
Seat 4: pocketdino ( $1048 )
Seat 5: Scubba ( $460 )
Seat 6: Yellowtail44 ( $3464 )
Seat 8: ReignMan99 ( $1021 )
Seat 7: slothr0p ( $2150 )
Seat 10: JackWould ( $1980 )
Seat 9: MantisStyle ( $1970 )
Seat 2: signiasam ( $1900 )
Yellowtail44 posts small blind [$10].
slothr0p posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Cheddarmon [ Kh Kc ]
>You have options at Table 69074 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
MantisStyle folds.
JackWould folds.
mrmbooth folds.
ReignMan99 has left the table.
>You have options at Table 69125 (No DP) Table!.
signiasam calls [$20].
>You have options at Table 69074 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 69046 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Cheddarmon raises [$80].
pocketdino folds.
Scubba is all-In [$460]
>You have options at Table 69074 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
hotmark777 has joined the table.
Yellowtail44 calls [$450].
slothr0p folds.
signiasam folds.
>You have options at Table 69074 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Cheddarmon calls [$380].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 9c, Jh ]
Yellowtail44 bets [$325].

I was planning on raising yellow all in on a flop with no ace, however, this was a scary flop for me. Should I stick with my plan? Haven't been at the table long so no reads.

very scary flop, and with the pot at over $1300, a bet of $325 is suspicious

it's a matter of what the $325 means... hard to say

He could have a lot of different hands here AA-99. These hands are now ALL ahead, or in the case of TT having at least a very strong draw, so this flop is indeed a disaster. He could also have a hand like AQ, AJ.

Really don't know, gotta hate that flop.

What about your outs? Do you figure that you have 4 outs for a T and another 2 for a K? If you figure that than you have a pretty decent case for pushing there. Figure some of the time you're going to be ahead with KK in that spot, and even if you aren't you'll wind up taking down the pot 1 in 4 times anyways when a K or a T hits.

I dunno. Really don't. I'd hate to call, hate to fold, and hate to raise.

Blah, I hate money games! If it were a tourney, it would be safe to assume that Yellow just called to get rid of the gimp and gimp is probably sitting on AK or something like that, so you could raise the $325 probe bet and be pretty hopeful if a T does not fall. My gut says you are good, but there's a lot of risk that villian got there on his JJ or QQ.

I hate playing big pots with overpairs, but that's tough to walk away from. I'm a donk, I push.

After you call preflop the pot is ~1450 with ~1720 behind. You have less than one pot-sized bet. Stick it in now. This could be compared to the no 3-bet KK preflop rule, but there are a few outstanding differences, namely...

- the stacks are not deep and are quite shallow relative to the pot (i.e. you need to protect what is out there NOW, and with a pot this big and his hand range still not completely restricted you are risking too much by flat-calling and letting him see a flop)

- Players at 2k NL are quite loose-aggressive. You stand a good chance of getting action from QQ and AK here, especially with all the dead money in the pot and the shortstack allin that you could be isolating with some less-than-monster holdings. This is player dependent though, so with a certain dynamic I can see calling here.

- This is far different from the KK situation where you are re-raised by someone and you are both tight-aggressive players with semi-deep stacks. Clearly 3-betting here does you no good, as your hand is totally transparent and you only get action when you're beat. In our hand, deception loses value since the pot is so big, and you still stand a good chance of getting play from QQ and AK anyway.

- If he is the kind of player who calls QQ allin on an undercard flop w/ this action into a dry sidepot, he will probably call allin preflop anyway. The idea of stacking QQ postflop but not preflop loses credence.

- It is near impossible for you to stack AK postflop, whereas he may call allin preflop without having seen a flop. By flat-calling you give him a chance to see a flop, which means he either a) outdraws you with an ace which you could have charged him for, or b) gets a chance to see himself miss and get away from the hand when he would have put another 1.7k in preflop drawing to 3 outs 5 times.

- Likewise, an ace kills any action QQ might have been willing to give preflop.

- You are very unsure what a "safe" flop is, and unsure how prepared he is to pay you off with weaker holdings. You plan to get it all-in on an undercard flop, unfortunately you have to pretty much check/fold on Q-high flops since now you stand to get bitched based on his hand range. What about a J-high flop? Do those work too? Is JJ feasible here, and is he likely to go all-in with JJ on a J-high flop but not QQ?

- If he is tricky and aggressive letting an ace pop could cost you the huge pot if he takes it on himself to bluff you out with QQ-TT and iso the shorty. This is pretty unlikely, but its by far the worse-case scenario and it would make a lot more sense if the shorty were loose/tilting.

So, what is the shorty all-in like? What is our caller's range here?

On the flop if you move allin it's a bluff, which needs to be considered here. I would put him pretty strongly on AA on the flop, with QQ-JJ second and AQ a distant third if the player descriptions fit the bill. Is his bet a probe bet that's a scared AA and is looking to fold? It could be, but very often these bets signify semi-pot-protecting bets that still plan to call all-ins anyway. I would probably not move in here very often, but if he were a tight guy who can make big laydowns I would...but I don't see people making big laydowns like this very often nowadays, esp. with that much in the pot. You'd have to know your opp pretty well to pull this off. I also would be reluctant to move all-in since QQ/JJ are a possibility, but this bet just seems to be more likely AA with the pf/flop combination.

Folding getting over 5-1 and 6 almost positive outs is bad.

I usually call, and reevaluate on the turn based on my read of the player, with heavy preference given to folding.

cacophobia after skimming your post it appears you want action from QQ

my question is why?
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 9c, Jh ]

cacophobia after skimming your post it appears you want action from QQ

my question is why?
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 9c, Jh ]

Read his post (you said you skimmed), this is pre-flop that caco is talking about.

I also agree completely with what he said about this situation.

oops you're right, guess my 4 AM posting isnt too sharp

heh, its 9pm here in Japan... Waiting for my friend to wake up from his nap so we can go back into Tokyo

Blank on the turn, he bets $425, I push. He calls with 10's, and river was another blank, I take. Other guy had AK.

call's with 10's
what a ballsy motherfucker.


Well played sir. Care to analyze your own thinking on the hand? I'd be curious to hear it.