ak in sb, facing raise/reraise .1/.25

***** Hand History for Game 3279954686 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, December 29, 12:09:46 EDT 2005
Table Table 65057 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: rajah234 ( $13.43 )
Seat 8: passthesuger ( $24.60 )
Seat 9: ZloiLesnik ( $7.58 )
Seat 6: ludovic21 ( $42.20 )
Seat 1: swise2478 ( $28.55 )
Seat 5: EVIL_E105 ( $41.20 )
Seat 4: a6p944 ( $18.65 )
Seat 3: KJTargaryen ( $20.15 )
Seat 2: jbre42 ( $12.25 )
Seat 10: dastick ( $15.66 )
passthesuger posts small blind [$0.10].
ZloiLesnik posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to passthesuger [ Ad Kc ]
dastick folds.
swise2478 raises [$0.50].
jbre42 folds.
KJTargaryen folds.
a6p944 calls [$0.50].
EVIL_E105 raises [$2].
>You have options at Table 65095 Table!.
ludovic21 folds.
rajah234 folds.
>You have options at Table 65730 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65671 Table!.
passthesuger ??????


whats your line here? pf/flop/turn/river

talk it all out

do you have any reads on these guys?

With no reads I'm probably calling and playing it really cautiously.

I would fold (Yes har har Agno) just because Evil seems to know what he's doing based on his chipstack.

That and at small limits like .10/.25 I try to avoid situations where I can potentially lose a lot of money, especially in horrible position like you are.

Plus you haven't even put any money in the pot (well, sb) and you still have 2 people to act after you.

one lucky hand gets you a chipstack at times. If there is nothing else to consider, than fine you can make that a consideration. Certainly you aren't losing money here by folding, but I think that you are often folding the best hand. Folding the best hand is never +EV, so to me, it's a mistake.

Im all in.

http://people.tamu.edu/~kainz/badbeat.JPG

i had no reads on them

but explain your plays on streets when you flop an a or a k

I would raise to $5 to see where I am. If either raiser pushes back real hard, then I have a decision to make. Do I put them on a high pair? Do I want to lay 45-55 on a race? If I get one caller (which is what I would expect 75% of the time), it will all depend on the texture of the flop and my table image.

If the flop is likely to be something that didn't hit anybody, I would consider a push if they view me as TAG and my bets are getting respect. If they see me as LAG, I will need to hit something to continue strong.

The last thing I would do is call b/c then I have no clue where I stand on the flop.

Yes, but does raising to $5 tell you anything about where you are? He is calling that raise with anything he just raised with. He will also often call that raise with aces and kings to slowplay. I don't expect to be pushed back at here very often, and since he is calling w/ everything he just raised with, how have you narrowed his hand range down at all

Also checking undercard flops is dumb and ugly and I hate it when I've shown this much strength and there's that much money in the pot, but with just an 88 overpair they will often go to the river and you have 0 folding equity. Basically you are check/folding almost everytime you miss, which is sucky of they have KQ/AQ/AJ and now take the pot away from you. Re-raising AK is usually only good if you have a tight image and they will give you credit for AA/KK a good chunk of the time.

I just call and check/call virtually every flop I hit and check/fold if I miss. If you hit an ace I would lean towards betting the turn or check/raising and if you hit a K I would lean towards checking the turn again and seeing what happens and probably folding to a second bet. I would rarely check/raise the flop with a K and might lead some turns if the board was draw heavy or if he bet really dinky on the flop. These are general though, it depends on your feel of the situation, I'm only saying that my tendencies will be slightly skewed one way or the other based on if I hit a K or an A. You need to reach showdown asap with a K so protecting your hand shouldn't matter as much since you're usually in a WA/WB situation. With an ace you are good almost always and are going to go stacked anyway if he has AA, so you might as well protect your hand and get value out of hands you're beating... except if flop is AQJ or some crap.

fwiw if these were actually 2 real raises I think this is an easy fold pf.

didn't someone post a hand really similar to this awhile back?

fold if no reads

Am I the only one who would think of dumping AKo in that position instantly? Maybe its from grinding and really hating positions of uncertainty in the lower limits, but I would hesitate to even call the $2 here. I mean what hands are these guys on? First raise doubles the blinds, second raise makes it to x8 BB. I`m not as worried about being dominated going into the flop by AA or KK, but am more worried about flopping TPTK against a set. I honestly don`t think that you can flat call here. I won`t play AK in first position with 3 people behind me in the hand. I mean you have no reads on anyone or know what kinds of cards they play, so go through them all.

I`d say more than likely at least one of them has a low/mid PP and maybe AJ-AK or since its $25 NL, you will have people calling the first $.50 and then with 3 other people in the hand, calling another $1.5 hoping to hit a flop with Axs, Kxs, or some sort of suited connector. Do you really want to be in a multiway pot with AK when you really have no good information on the people you are playing with? I certainly don`t.

I`d think of it this way... How can you take a big hit and how can you make a lot in that situation? First, how will you make a lot? AQ/AJ over valuing their ace when it hits, or some idiot chasing. How can you lose? Mainly when you don`t have the discipline to drop your hand. I mean you hit your TPTK on a rainbow flop and get re-raised or check and then have heavy betting behind you, you have to make a decision, one that I don`t like making. And in the end the middle guy shows 33 and takes down the pot with a set, or 57s for two pair or something like that. Something that you really won`t see coming.

I ASSUME (right or wrong) that I am a better player than the average bunch of guys online at this level. I would rather wait for a better spot. I think that you lose very little by letting the hand go and stand to lose a great deal if one of the three others hit their hand.

Yes, but does raising to $5 tell you anything about where you are? He is calling that raise with anything he just raised with.
Not sure I agree with that. In $25 game, $5 seems to be the cut off between what people will friviously throw in and what they need a hand to call with. But the amount is not really the issue -- make it $8 or $10 or whatever you think will get the information you need based on how the table flow has been and your table image at the time.

The reason I don't like a cold call is that if an A or a K comes on the flop, I am giving myself a hard decision. If I am scared of AA or KK before the flop when I just called then why do I want to see it on the flop? I would much rather give my opponent holding middle pair (or even better AQ) a tough decision by re-raising pre-flop than giving myself one on the flop.

Am I the only one who would think of dumping AKo in that position instantly?
Folding AKo to two min-raises in a $25 game is pretty tight even being out of position.

I`d say more than likely at least one of them has a low/mid PP and maybe AJ-AK
This is why I think raising is the correct move. Anyone on middle pair with a big raise or raise/re-raise behind them has to think they are beaten. And if I flop TPTK and they happen to hit their 7.5-1 shot and flop a set, I am going to lose my continuation bet on the flop and not much more.

i folded this hand pf and the flop was aa2, they both ended up showing down, one had aqo the other kk, so i figured it was a good fold vs the kk reraise, which is what i put him on

Its an ok fold. Like I said though its -EV over the long run IMO.

unless you're up against bad players you will not get any action when you hit - and if you do you're probably behind

he's playing $25NL. You are quite often up against bad players. You will often get action from worse aces, or worse kings when either the K or A hits. Naturally you prefer that the A hits in case of KK.

You point is often valid though. This is why Brunson advocates pushing with AK PF. I personally don't agree with that move as often as he advocated it in SuperSystem, but it is occassionally a good idea.

I'm not sure why we are saying this is a good fold. Even if you put your opponent on KK, you are 7-3 (2.3-1) underdog to KK with AK. The pot is offering you 1.65-1 odds to call the $2 and as you can see by the flop that happened to hit, the implied odds of such a holding can be enormous.

I agree with XalloutwarX, over time that's a -EV play.

i mean, he had kk this time, but aa would have made the same move and when i flop the a vs him that time im busted

if i knew he had kk i still really dont want to play that pot oop without any reads on the guy

i mean, he had kk this time, but aa would have made the same move and when i flop the a vs him that time im busted

if i knew he had kk i still really dont want to play that pot oop without any reads on the guy
You are right ... if you hold AK and your opponent holds AA, if the case ace flops, you are in a world of hurt. However, the odds of a player holding AA when you hold one ace in your hand are 40-1 against -- that means 97 out of 100 times you have AK, you will not be facing AA. If your opponent holds KK you are 7-3 against, so if you are getting 2.3-1 odds (or implied odds) on your call, it is correct.

also, i cant automatically assume that i even really have outs with my a and k, that reraise could have ak and the other guy could have aq lets say, and in that case i had 1 a and 2 k's as outs, and im oop meaning that ill probably fold to alot of heat on a flop/turn raise being afraid of a set or something

there are alot of situations where i think its just a losing play oop

Am I the only one who would think of dumping AKo in that position instantly?

The first raise is not a raise. To me this is a decision to call or fold with AK against a raiser in a straddled pot, there is no difference between the two. I don't pretend to think call is huge +EV, but it's certainly slightly +EV assuming you are a good player. If you don't know how to handle tricky situations like these you're better off folding. That's not an insult, sometimes it's simply the truth, and sometimes your bankroll can't handle the variance, because playing the hand certainly has a somewhat high variance.

I`d say more than likely at least one of them has a low/mid PP and maybe AJ-AK or since its $25 NL

I question whether or not you've even played these limits at all - this hand range is way, way too strict. I would expect to stack someone on AJ/AQ/KQ at least as often as I get stacked by a set, if not much more often.

In $25 game, $5 seems to be the cut off between what people will friviously throw in and what they need a hand to call with.

Did you just pull this number out your ass? I have never heard anything more ridiculous. Don't just make up numbers to back up your claims. He's getting well over 2-1 (closer to 3-1) in pot odds and like 9-1 or some crap in implied odds. Even if he doesn't know these numbers exactly, most all players know them intuitively, be it just looking at the pot and deciding there's a lot in there or letting the ego dictate what calls and what folds.

make it $8 or $10 or whatever you think will get the information you need based on how the table flow has been and your table image at the time.

There is a line between what you need to raise to get your information and using that information effectively vs. how much you're risking to get what you need to know.

Suppose you raise with kings and a tight player re-raises you. You know his range is QQ-AA. You can now pop him back half your stack to figure out if he has aces, but by doing this you have done two things: you have compromised the intinsic value of your hand and you have enabled him to play perfectly, i.e. he folds QQ and he pushes in with AA. Moreover, it is simply not cost effective to risk this much money to figure out if you're behind or not. I only say this because there are certain situations where you can pop a guy back big and he may go off and play imperfectly anyway, but you can't just go around raising raising raising to figure out if your hands are good. You need to balance risk vs. reward ratios. As I see it, there are 3 possible courses that emerge when you raise him, each one is based on how much you raise:

1. If you raise too little, he calls with nearly everything he just raised with due to excellent implied and pot odds.
2. If you raise too much, you enable him to play perfectly and you risk too much to win too little. You also compromise the value of your hand in most cases, unless you are up against an aggressive player who you do not mind getting it all-in with. Generally, in these situations, if I re-raise it is with the intention of getting it all-in.
3. There is a medium. In this medium he is unsure whether or not you are stealing the pot or have a legitimate hand. He may decide to fold some hands that now beat you or he may decide to call with some hands that don't. You also risk a reasonable amount relative to what's in the pot, and you also narrow down his hand range to a more manageable size with a smaller risk.

The problem is, there are situations where this medium does not exist. Either you are having to risk too large a percentage of your stack to fall in between 1 and 2, or your opponent's hand ranges pre-raise and post-raise are such that your raise gains you absolutely nothing. In my opinion, this is such a situation.

You are saying "WE MUST RAISE TO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO FIND OUT IF WE ARE BEAT OR NOT." Well, then you might as well raise to 10 with seven-deuce off, because you're mucking if he peeps any more.

I am saying we must think what line of action wins the most from hands we're beating and loses the least to hands we don't. Your line does neither of these.

I would much rather give my opponent holding middle pair (or even better AQ) a tough decision...

On the contrary, I think you are simplifying his decision immensely. AQ clams up a hell of a lot quicker to a re-raise than to a call.

...than giving myself one on the flop.

It's not that hard. If you are on ABC autopilot and only play the top 2% of hands, then sure, it might be difficult.

Well, that certainly sounds like a lot of stuff, but I've not even yet reached my main objections with re-raising:

1. What do you do after you re-raise and miss?
2. Supposing everyone else folds when you re-raise (probable), what do you think he does with AA or KK? Do you think your raise forces him to play in a manner any more predictable than if you had flat-called? Do you think it saves you any money when you flop an ace or a king? Might it even cost you more money?

These points are why re-raising is blatantly incorrect.

Its an ok fold. Like I said though its -EV over the long run IMO.

Folding is 0EV.

This is why Brunson advocates pushing with AK PF.

I don't see this in the book. All I see is if the button makes a big re-raise that might be a steal, or if there is a lot of dead money in the pot, you should considering moving in pre-flop.

I only like re-raising preflop with AK if I have a very loose image or a very tight image. The former is obvious: if you are re-raising liberally you must give them credibility. The latter is a little less obvious, I think... basically you can't let them take you off your hand every time an ace flops. You can't be one of those guys who just raises with the big pairs. It gives nice balance to your game. Moreover, re-raising AK when they give you credit for a big pair has a lot of advantages. If you are somewhat deep they may call with a pocket pair to try and bust you, thinking they have the implied odds when they really don't (since you just continuation bet and fold to further action if you miss). You also pick up a lot of dead money a lot of the times without having to face very difficult decisions since they give you credit for a big pair.

Even if you put your opponent on KK, you are 7-3 (2.3-1) underdog to KK with AK.

This is with all 5 cards out. You are unlikely to see past the flop with ace high. Generally you don't call with AK against KK based on implied odds... if he flipped up KK here you should fold.

There is one more thing to think about in postflop play. What if the other two people tag along? Does this affect whether you bet or check on the flop? I think a good case can be made for betting here. The preflop re-raiser is likely to give you more credit for a great hand leading out into 4 people (which is good), and you force the other players to declare their hands before you trap yourself in between the re-raiser and the other guys. Moreover, the preflop re-raiser is much less likely to continuation bet into 4 players now, so you risk having a free card pop up that could cost you an already growing pot.


My last thought is that there is no excuse not to have reads. I used to make this excuse out of laziness, so now I scope out all the tables I'm about to sit down at before sitting down. That way I've seen 3-4 orbits and have a great feel for the flow of the game and the relative skill of the players before ever playing a hand. I also take notes fiendishly and very often sit down at tables where 60-70% of the table has already been documented.

I doubt it was your first orbit at the table. More than likely you were just lazy. Sometimes this is fine. If you are 10-tabling or something there is no time for reads and you usually just want to come up with a general template for these situations that can make you a profit in the long run.

I certainly can make a nice profit here with reads. Without reads, not nearly as nice, but against the average 25NL player a profit nonetheless.