Hand Discussion A9o in the BB.

Weird fucking day. I'm down a few hundred bucks and I couldn't even tell you if I've played badly or not. Anyways I figure I would discuss a hand I just experienced.

NatronJoe is a horribly loose/passive player over 150+ hands.
Oacksf1 is posting and just sat down. Never played with him before.

It would have helped if I had initially said that this is 5/10 limit.

Seat 6 - FROST10 ($170.50 in chips)
Seat 7 - NATRONJOE ($297.50 in chips)
Seat 8 - CJBURDEN ($100.50 in chips)
Seat 9 - SMOOTHTURN ($303 in chips)
Seat 1 - JIZZEL ($178 in chips)
Seat 2 - DRMULLETS ($419 in chips)
Seat 3 - BIGSKYGUY ($439.54 in chips)
Seat 4 - OACKSF1 ($152.66 in chips)
Seat 5 - WALOONGA ($50 in chips)
NATRONJOE - Posts small blind $3
CJBURDEN - Posts big blind $5
OACKSF1 - Posts $5
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to CJBURDEN [9h Ad]
SMOOTHTURN - Folds
JIZZEL - Folds
DRMULLETS - Folds
BIGSKYGUY - Folds
OACKSF1 - Raises $5 to $10
WALOONGA - Folds
FROST10 - Folds
NATRONJOE - Calls $7
CJBURDEN - Calls $5
*** FLOP *** [3h Ac 6d]
NATRONJOE - Checks
CJBURDEN - Checks
OACKSF1 - Checks
*** TURN *** [3h Ac 6d] [4c]
NATRONJOE - Bets $10
CJBURDEN - Raises $20 to $20
OACKSF1 - Calls $20
NATRONJOE - Calls $10
*** RIVER *** [3h Ac 6d 4c] [3d]
NATRONJOE - Checks
CJBURDEN - ???


My decisionmaking process went something like: MP1 open raise means little. He might be raising on a steal trying to conserve his posted ante. He might have Ax. He might have a pair. SB calling made me feel as though i had correct odds for a call here.

Check the flop to the PF raiser even though I hit the A. Flop goes checks around.

Natron leading out the turn means nothing. Although he's loose passive, if people check around or a street goes unbet, he likes to bluff quite frequently.

Because of this I raise to isolate. MP1 flat calling a raised turn is incredibly scary. He has to be a horrible player, have an ace, or have a monster.

How do you play the river?

You have never played with Oacksf1, I think you have to respect the pre flop raise until you see otherwise with more hands.

I don't think you should be playing a weak ace in that spot if you aren't going to bet the flop which came out.

I would bet $30, if anyone comes over the top, I'd get out of the way.

You were getting 4-1 preflop, so I think the call was entirely proper. I probably would have thrown out a probe on the flop, say 2/3 the pot ($20) and been prepared to fold to a big raise. But, to your specific question ...

On the river, I would bet out maybe half the pot (so $45), but I think I am beaten. I'm not so scared of the action on the turn, new guy is getting 3-1 for his call and donk is getting 8-1 to call after you raise; but, I smell a flopped set. I think OAC's actions are entirely consistent with small to middle pair; donk's bet and call on the turn make it look like he is looking for a miracle card (which may have come on the river, but can't worry too much about that.)

Isn't he getting 5-1 preflop?

The call pre flop is fine, but if you aren't going to bet that particular flop, why even play A9 at all in that spot, that is my contention.

I would feel in this spot that I was beat by Oacks. I would only toss out $30, try to represent somewhat of a value bet so even if he has you beat without a monster he calls it down. If he has a monster he is coming over the top whether you bet $30 or $45. Worst Natron will do is call you down unless he has you beat for sure in which case he will be coming over the top and you can get out of the way with only wasting $30 instead of $45.

There is a decent chance you will be betting into a monster and a damn good chance you are beat. Bet the $30, try to get it to a showdown, even if you are beat you get some information.

Isn't he getting 5-1 preflop?
Yes. :)

oops. I forgot that I changed the title. This is 5/10 limit btw.

that was in my original title and I'm an idiot.

Id check/call if oacks bets.

I don't have much experience in limit, but...

After the flop check, people will usually c-bet with anything here, particularly against the blinds, so your check traps the loose player... problem is, is this the time for trapping? Should you be attempting to isolate the loose player or not? The only scenario where you effectively isolate the loose guy is if you bet and the pfr raises, then you've protected against the loose player, but then you're probably drawing pretty slim against the pfr and have pretty big reverse implied odds. so I like a check. if you check and the pfr bets what happens if:

1. first guy folds
2. first guy calls

I really wouldn't know what to do, my gut says to c/r in the first scenario and lead in the second scenario but I haven't really thought it out yet, or know what I should even be concerned about in situations like these...

on turn if the guy who bet will bluff twice (not likely imo on this board) then you should consider just calling... otherwise I like the raise, it can get tricky with the other guy in there, if he cold-calls or 3-bets you're usually done with the hand so you figure out quick if he has something... and a lot of the times you'll isolate and charge the bettor who will call with 56 or something and may even pay off a river value bet.

River clear check imo, if PFR bets and first guy folds you are getting 10-1 on a call I believe, so you need to be good here 1 in 11 times? The flop check/turn coldcall combination just screams strength to me, I go ahead and ditch it.

Isn't he getting 5-1 preflop?

The call pre flop is fine, but if you aren't going to bet that particular flop, why even play A9 at all in that spot, that is my contention.

I would feel in this spot that I was beat by Oacks. I would only toss out $30, try to represent somewhat of a value bet so even if he has you beat without a monster he calls it down. If he has a monster he is coming over the top whether you bet $30 or $45. Worst Natron will do is call you down unless he has you beat for sure in which case he will be coming over the top and you can get out of the way with only wasting $30 instead of $45.

There is a decent chance you will be betting into a monster and a damn good chance you are beat. Bet the $30, try to get it to a showdown, even if you are beat you get some information.

The best way to get it to a showdown is to not bet at all.
However, I do think that when I flop my A here I have a value bet to make. I didn't bet the flop because I nearly always check to the PF raiser in small pots to see what action they are going to take. In this case I have no apparent draws to fear, and I clearly am not concerned with an overcard falling, so I don't have to worry very much about protecting my hand. If he bets the flop I am going to likely pop him back on the flop and come out betting the turn, probably folding to a raise if he hits back at me. If he doesn't bet the flop than I have at least added some deception to the strength of my hand at the cost of letting 2 players see a free card.