Opinions: Breakable grappler

so now you've made the ammo count so low that the newbie player that IG was shooting for now cannot use the grappler for it's intended use, and have raised the level of proficiency for the use of the grappler. Sure, it might be easy for you to pick up and use, but a new player would look at the grappler as a hindered weapon and not choose to use it. there are pros and cons with limiting the ammo count.

PRO: you limit the use of turtling and have a "chance" to kill as grappler.

CON: you limit the usefulness of the grappler, raise the proficiency level of the grappler, and turn off the casual gamer to not even bother using it.

I never said it should have 5 ammo, I just pointed out that to those who can use it it, 5 ammo would still be more than enough. Of course, less ammo means less versatility in its use, and for that it shouldn't have less than ~8 ammo imo.

The other thing is, people will use efficient stuff even if it doesn't have much ammo (see mortar and nades).

The thing I don't get is, if these discussions are happening from players, shouldn't they have happened with the DEVs? When developing a new weapon (new game for that matter), if an item is too powerful, to limited, doesn't fit your overall design, or need to be tweaked over and over, should it not have been left on the cutting room floor? If the grappler has this type of problem of dominating the game play, or being limited to a % of players who wish to try and master it, it really doesn't fit into the new friendlier player design that the DEVs strived for. Hence being cut and removed during the design stage, and replaced with something more viable.

I understand you wish to keep the grappler in game and in competition, but if you nerf it down to where it is a useless item (to the casual player), or only used by a select few players, then if should have been removed altogether, completely re-designed, or replaced.
Not everything can be predicted before actually implementing and seeing its actual effects. Complete redesigns aren't a very good idea post-retail either.

I never said it should have 5 ammo, I just pointed out that to those who can use it it, 5 ammo would still be more than enough. Of course, less ammo means less versatility in its use, and for that it shouldn't have less than ~8 ammo imo.

The other thing is, people will use efficient stuff even if it doesn't have much ammo (see mortar and nades).

Not everything can be predicted before actually implementing and seeing its actual effects. Complete redesigns aren't a very good idea post-retail either.

Thats the whole point about play testing .... you play test before you go retail to see which items work and which need to be remove, re-designed. The TW comunity was sooo hyped about getting a new toy, they didn't see how this new toy would effect T:V in a negitive way.

But again, you limit the ammo, you limit the player base that uses it.

how bout 1-2 cg bullets. if it had health, it should be easy to take out. one disc for sure
If you can hit the grappler's hook with 2 cg bullets moving at whatever the hell fast speed them i'm calling autoaim hax on you.

to remind everyone

1. leave as it is
2. add unbreakable mutator
3. remove from server

choose one of the 3. any subset of grapple modifications is pointless and will unbalance the game in a myriad of different ways.

if you play with 2 or 3, change your server name to reflect your decision, so i know not to play there.

Thats the whole point about play testing .... you play test before you go retail to see which items work and which need to be remove, re-designed. The TW comunity was sooo hyped about getting a new toy, they didn't see how this new toy would effect T:V in a negitive way.

The devs can't playtest all day long, they have a game to make. And because the grappler was an entirely new addition to the game, you couldn't rely on feedback from only a couple weeks of beta. It worked for the most part, and the issues that could arise later in demo and retail can be fixed with a little tweaking here and there. Now it's getting obvious that the grappler needs some fixing (although many still don't think so), and it's time to make those small changes. Pretty much like the shield pack, it's a good concept, but slightly flawed design.

But again, you limit the ammo, you limit the player base that uses it.
If something's overused, then this is a good thing. But that's not the only thing it limits. It also increases the satisfied players who oppose the tactic, because now they have more equal chances against their opponents than said opponents have against them.

and btw yogi ammo does help, making it infinite would be a very bad idea

It was infinite for a while in beta and I haven't noticed a change at all yet between being infinite and having ammo.

That may just be me.

in my mind the best way to decrease the power of the grappler is to add one more armor slot across the all the armors.

by giving more firepower to the chasers, you give them the ability to chase after the grappler, and maybe have a grenade launcher to spam him, or a sniper rifle to stop and shoot him when it makes sense.

i think its the most non-intrusive way to fix the problem.

the reason you would give all armors one extra weapon is to make it consistent to the original t:v game design. (which i'm assuming would lead to relatively small time to implement said change from business/design/techincal angles)

3 shots of ammo.

3 seconds before the line breaks.

It's still a "useful" addition to the arsenal, but it isn't a game breaker the way it is now.

3 shots of ammo.

3 seconds before the line breaks.

It's still a "useful" addition to the arsenal, but it isn't a game breaker the way it is now.
Umm, no and no.


3 would be way too low, and a time limit just doesn't make sense. Breakable hook/weaker rope do fine if you want to prevent people from just hanging around.

aaaaaah

These grappler arguments hurt my head after too long. Let me see if I can simplify my opinion
What's the biggest problem of grapplers? Someone hanging in a single position (or swinging) spamming down on people who have a disadvantage because their target is in the air.
Solution? Destructable grappler hook; a clean fix for this particular flaw in balance presented by the grappler.


The grappler is fun and adds too movement when used to swing around
right? right.

It can be very hard to hit someone swinging to move around with a grappler right? of course

What about a jetpack? Yeah, its also hard to hit someone moving around with a jetpack.

Why is the jetpack different then? The limitation of energy means they won't be continously moving.

Why does limiting energy work so smoothly and intuitively with jetpacks but ammo only work to a point with a grappler? The jetpack's rechargeable energy source makes its usage indefinite but only a certain amount can be used at a time.

Is there a way to limit a grappler in a way that allows freedom of movement and the utilization of the grappler for dodging without making it a trump card in this area of usage? If they did it with a jetpack, they can do it with a grappler.

So my idea is to have a notable (maybe a whole second or even more) amount of recharge/reload time for the grappler after the line has been released; while an extremely good grappler might still manage a flag run without touching the ground it would seriously lower the proficiency of grappler fighters and cappers.

aaaaaah

These grappler arguments hurt my head after too long. Let me see if I can simplify my opinion
What's the biggest problem of grapplers? Someone hanging in a single position (or swinging) spamming down on people who have a disadvantage because their target is in the air.
Solution? Destructable grappler hook; a clean fix for this particular flaw in balance presented by the grappler.


The grappler is fun and adds too movement when used to swing around
right? right.

It can be very hard to hit someone swinging to move around with a grappler right? of course

What about a jetpack? Yeah, its also hard to hit someone moving around with a jetpack.

Why is the jetpack different then? The limitation of energy means they won't be continously moving.

Why does limiting energy work so smoothly and intuitively with jetpacks but ammo only work to a point with a grappler? The jetpack's rechargeable energy source makes its usage indefinite but only a certain amount can be used at a time.

Is there a way to limit a grappler in a way that allows freedom of movement and the utilization of the grappler for dodging without making it a trump card in this area of usage? If they did it with a jetpack, they can do it with a grappler.

So my idea is to have a notable (maybe a whole second or even more) amount of recharge/reload time for the grappler after the line has been released; while an extremely good grappler might still manage a flag run without touching the ground it would seriously lower the proficiency of grappler fighters and cappers.
Plague and I have had this idea for months. It could work just like the jetpack, the longer you use it, its 'energy' drains, but slowly recharges when not in use.



I have to say that while the idea does seem to be good, it wouldn't fix much of grapple turtling, as a capper could still grapple around the map for all eternity. At this point I'm convinced the grappler needs ammo, and not more than 8.

You can also ski around the map for all eternity, that doesn't stop people from shooting you.

If the recharge time is just right it would take a precise combination of jetting and grappling to stay off the ground (if they do hit the ground consistently the grappler is no longer the problem), and if its precise enough it won't be improvised. If it has a pattern a turtle is dead.

But the grappler allows for a lot more drastic changes in direction/speed than skiing, and thus increases inpredictability as well as the capper's chances to get away from a tight situation. Therefore, something should be done to force people to not overuse it: low ammo count is perfect for that, you either cut back on grapple usage or go back to your base and risk getting killed more frequently.

You can also change direction unpredictably with a spinfusor and shield pack, a jetpack, or an energy pack none of those options are more limited ammo wise than the current grappler.

The grappler takes a whole weapon slot; is it more valuable than a mortar per shot to a heavy? a sniper rifle to a light?
Limiting its ammo will decrease usage, but the same goes for anything; thats not the full solution.

A disc has ammo, and by disc jumping you sacrifice health which is also limited.

The jetpack and e-boost become less useful for rapidly changing directions at higher speeds.


None of those properties would apply for the current grappler if it had unlimited ammo. It does take a weapon slot, but for that it gives you near infinite possibilities.


You're right that lowering ammo count doesn't solve everything, but in this case it is needed. Personally, I think the elasticity of the rope should be reduced too to limit no-brainer stunts shooting you halfway through the map.

aaaaaah
What's the biggest problem of grapplers? Someone hanging in a single position (or swinging) spamming down on people who have a disadvantage because their target is in the air.


That's not the biggest problem.

I'm all for giving it 5 ammo, and making the grapple point diskable. Chasing a capper around cavern, or one who's swinging around the base on emerald, or the lamers who swing around and around the crane on junk, would be infinatly easier if the grapple point was diskable. The reduction in ammo to 5 would help as well. Seriously, when does any one use the grappler more than 5 times a run, on any map other than cavern, when their not grapple turtling?

You can also change direction unpredictably with a spinfusor and shield pack, a jetpack, or an energy pack none of those options are more limited ammo wise than the current grappler.
A DJ costs health and is more predictable than a grapple... You can't use a DJ to make a 180 degree turn without loss of speed.

The grappler takes a whole weapon slot; is it more valuable than a mortar per shot to a heavy? a sniper rifle to a light?
In a word, yes.

The grappling hook lets you circumvent the normal rules of Tribes physics. All velocity is potential velocity in any direction. Jetting AWAY from your objective doesn't mean it will take you longer to get there. All routes can be considered 'back routes' in a certain way. Using all your enegry doesn't mean that you're now resigned to a certain course of action, it just means you're going fast.

in my mind the best way to decrease the power of the grappler is to add one more armor slot across the all the armors.

by giving more firepower to the chasers, you give them the ability to chase after the grappler, and maybe have a grenade launcher to spam him, or a sniper rifle to stop and shoot him when it makes sense.

i think its the most non-intrusive way to fix the problem.

the reason you would give all armors one extra weapon is to make it consistent to the original t:v game design. (which i'm assuming would lead to relatively small time to implement said change from business/design/techincal angles)
dizzle

dont change ammo- i dont think it makes a difference. I do agree with a possible breakable hook. I also agree with flying into it should break the line. However, autodisengage is too much, and it should take more than 1 disk, maybe 1 disk and 2 chaingun bullets :-P but still more than one disk.