[Feedback]Buckler

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 02:04 AM
Sunday, September 12th: V-Day +17


5 days ago, I took up the Buckler as a regular weapon in my loadout. I've used it as often as I could, choosing to have it with me where ever I went. I've taken it on offence and I've stayed on defence with it. I've attacked Pods with it, generators, cappers and HoF's with it. At first and prior to last week, I was apathetic to it with no real appeal towards the Buckler as I couldn't really see what it could do better then what I've already been doing with other equiptment. A week later, it's grown on me and I have become attatched to it, even though I still have trouble seeing what it does better then the same thing done with something else.

In the obvious role of killing the enemy, it does have its oddball style, and I like the "niche" factor of seeing my name repeatedly displayed on the HUD killing players with the buckler. Infact I petition that I should get a style point for every kill I make with it because its just that damn cool and artistic when I zing the capper it . However, I do have to admit that I choose to use the Buckler not because its effective, the Disker or the Chaingun is often more reliable, but because of the reward/challenge of learning to excell at something that's naturally handicapped. However, the shortcoming in killing the enemy with the buckler in the past 5 days has not produced the urge to comment on its weaknesses quite as much as the shortcomings found in its other "special trait".

One thing that truely hurts the Buckler is the refire rate. The Buckler is a short ranged weapon. In close quarters, for a weapon that can not disrupt the enemy (IE no blast impulse), a weapon with a long refire delay is costly. If I use a disk on an enemy inside a base, the blast from the disk will often knock my target away, throwing out his aim and hopefully retarding his accuracy for when he counterattacks with a disk of his own. The Buckler will not do this, it leaves my enemy fully able to counterattack without penalty. At close range with an enemy, the already long time it can take for my buckler to return to my hand can seem like an eternity, however waiting for the refire delay even after the buckler has returned to my hand can seem longer. This equates to the Disker being greater then the Buckler at close range which is counter-intuitive since the Buckler is a dedicated short range assualt weapon. IMO, the only refire delay the Buckler should have is the actual time it takes for it to return from its flight. If I skillfully cause the buckler to rebound off a wall and return early, that should be my advantage in close quarters, like indoors. As long as the Buckler is in my hand, I should always be able to fire the Buckler. It would make the Buckler a much stronger indoor weapon for assualting and more appealing and advantageous over other weapons in those tight quarters. Since the buckler is rather useless as a shield for defending from counterattack, the able to kill the enemy quickly is important.


The Deflector feature of the Buckler repeatedly generates the setiments that its underpowered, unreliable and altogether a feature of no worth. The bodyblocking seems ok, even though the running charge and ramming a standing player could do alittle more. I played an entire map of Winterlake sending LO cappers ragdolling into orbit as a MoF w/buckler. Never in 17 days of T:V have I laughed so hard watching them go tumbling into the horizon with their zanny death screams filling my speakers. It reminds of watching Disney Cartoons when Goofy falls off the edge of the cliff [note to DEV: Patch Goof-Scream into Buckler rebounding SFX]. However that was 1 map, with cappers who were slow to learn. In the end, I think that many times it would have just been better and more effective to have blasted the enemy with a disk then go for the flamboyant Buckler kill (The Body block kill needs its own DeathHUD icon).

The trouble with trying to block or hipcheck incoming players is that you have to be willing to put yourself at risk and sacrifice your natural and instinctive initiative to fire on the incoming enemy. But, if you are not reliably going to see success for your choice, IE: Not get blasted all to hell and respawned for standing your ground, the option is actually a gamble that often proves foolish.

If you stand your ground and hope to use your Buckler to deflect a shot from the enemy, you find that success or better yet failure is less about your ability and more about how unreliable your enemy's aim is. The Buckler offers no protection from splash damage, no protection from the impulse blast, nor any protection for the lower half your body. Despite its namesake, the Buckler makes for a really crappy shield. This shortcoming in the Buckler makes me question its worth as a Medium only Weapon. Even while airborne, when you could use it to protect yourself from that midair disk, its unreliable and offers little reward. Since the vast majority of damage from weapons in Tribes is done through splash damage, having even just a 50/50 chance at deflecting direct hits equates to the Buckler having low odds as an option for protecting yourself. Murphy's law when I need and fully want the enemy to make a direct hit on me, they couldn't hit the broadside of Scarabrea.


IMO, the Buckler should protect you from splash damage that originates in your from quarter as well as being more reliable at deflecting direct hits away from you.



The Buckler trashes inventory stations really well... especially with players standing on them
The Buckler makes for a good combo weapon used in tandum with another dueling weapon like the Disker
The Buckler is decent at deflecting chaingun rounds
The Buckler is unreliable at deflecting anything else
The Buckler is very slow
The Buckler damage is inconsistent, sometimes it hurts alot, sometimes not at all
The Buckler takes practise, to a degree unlike other weapons, but the return on spending time with the weapon is no more advantageous over any other weapon The Buckler refire rate is noticeable and long for the role it is ment for.



(Suggestions)
Lower refire rate
Add Headshot Damage
Add Splash Damage protection to front quarter
Increase Deflector Collsion box for rebounding direct hits.

GB.Arkady
09-13-2004, 02:47 AM
It reminds of watching Disney Cartoons when Goofy falls off the edge of the cliff [note to DEV: Patch Goof-Scream into Buckler rebounding SFX

Wa-Ha-Ha-Hoooie!

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7451/goofy_yell.wav

You mean THIS one?

vivrant
09-13-2004, 02:47 AM
its not a "refire rate" its the buckler going out and flying around
the only way to make it a quicker fire is to speed up the buckler or give it a shorter range (both are not a good idea)

bartkusa
09-13-2004, 02:48 AM
Part of why the Buckler may not be so hot is because of extreme vertical angles. If it's checking the player model and not the player's aim, then it doesn't do you any good if you're 150m over your opponent. You don't tuck the Buckler under your feet. You might raise it over your head if you're looking up.

I think deflection should be a matter of aim and not of your player model, because you just can't sense what your player model is defending.

GB.Arkady
09-13-2004, 02:51 AM
The buckler makes me moist...

btw, found the wav possibly, see previous post

The Pope
09-13-2004, 02:51 AM
One thing that might make it work a bit better is to make it move away when you click and come back when you click again, so at short range you can have a really quick fire rate. You could also make it come back as soon as it gets behind someone. Then, to be really fancy, click as soon as it goes through them and get them again. Having the buckler go through someone repeatedly would look really cool.

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 02:55 AM
its not a "refire rate" its the buckler going out and flying around
the only way to make it a quicker fire is to speed up the buckler or give it a shorter range (both are not a good idea)


No, there's a refire rate in addition to the bucklers physical flight time. Outside, the Buckler will be airborne longer then the refire rate. However, fire the Buckler into a solid Wall and the Buckler will rebound and return to your hand very quickly, but watch the refire counter on the weapon Icon. Even though you have the weapon back on your arm, you have to wait.


It would be nice if the buckler cut through shielded objects better too.

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 02:58 AM
The buckler makes me moist...

btw, found the wav possibly, see previous post


You rock :p .

synthix ghost
09-13-2004, 03:08 AM
Hellsfury, congratulations on a great analysis for the buckler. I too have been trying to learn how to use it, and I definately agree with you on all points; especially the reliability of the shield itself. My sister and I have tested the buckler shield with discs, burners, bullets, etc; and it shows how unreliable the shield can be. Though, we've been able to bounce mortar shells off it and into the other person, but that is with the 2 of us standing still, and the other aiming DIRECTLY at the shield's center.

I hope the devs consider the input to make the buckler more of a match for other weapons.

VaporTrail
09-13-2004, 03:08 AM
I'll agree on pretty much everything.

The lack of splash, the short range, etc, make killing with it a a very "skill intensive" exercise, any way you slice it.

Refire rate: making this too short will make it a "rape weapon" as it bounces from hand to target rapidly. Perhaps an absolute maximum of two shots per second?

Deflection: agreed. Aim should be the determining factor for reflecting shots, not "model direction". Reflecting shots is one of the big things for the buckler... it needs to happen quite a lot, for most weapons.

Damage protection: Right now the whole thing about holding the buckler is you're trying to protect yourself from damage. What's the smartest thing you can think of when fighting one? Stay out of range and don't shoot it, shoot behind, below, or to one side of it with splash damage. So it's not a real "useful" weapon unless you happen to be right on top of the enemy (through surprise or whatever). I can see some splash damage absorption based on directional interception (ie, point the buckler at the site of the explosion and you recieve maximum benifit, which lessens as the aim moves away).

SkyMonkey
09-13-2004, 03:11 AM
Good thoughts. I'd been thinking a lot about making a post regarding my thoughts on the buckler, but you've pretty much summed it up I think. I agree on pretty much everything.

It's funny, I too feel that I could be "more effective" sometimes by not carrying the buckler, but whenever I'm medium D I have it. It's just damned cool, and I'm getting pretty skilled with it. Don't forget you can fire the buckler at a player then whip out another weapon. I've often hit a HO or other slowmoving target that's in front of me with the outgoing shot of the buckler, then an MA disk, then the return shot of the buckler. Getting all three is tough, but possible if you are reletively head on. 2 is easier and much more common. Body blocking and even ramming HO and cappers with it is effective, varying somewhat with the map/terrain/flag location.

<3 teh buckler.

-Striker-
09-13-2004, 03:15 AM
Anyone else remember Hellsfury's pitch to add a scutum to t2?

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 03:16 AM
I'll agree on pretty much everything.


Refire rate: making this too short will make it a "rape weapon" as it bounces from hand to target rapidly. Perhaps an absolute maximum of two shots per second?



The Buckler cuts clean through soft targets like other players. So, unless there's a solid wall behind the target, the Buckler travels its full flight path, which takes time. Indoors, the Buckler travels a much shorter flight path as it rebounds off more walls so the actual refire rate is a lot more noticable and costly. The delay appears longer then the disker, which makes the Disker more dangerous.

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 03:17 AM
Anyone else remember Hellsfury's pitch to add a scutum to t2?

LOL

VaporTrail
09-13-2004, 03:26 AM
The Buckler cuts clean through soft targets like other players. So, unless there's a solid wall behind the target, the Buckler travels its full flight path, which takes time. Indoors, the Buckler travels a much shorter flight path as it rebounds off more walls so the actual refire rate is a lot more noticable and costly. The delay appears longer then the disker, which makes the Disker more dangerous.
Yes, I'm tallking about "hard" targets (gens and such) where it deals damage and bounces back immediately. Standing close to one of these with a short enough refire rate will let someone kill it in an insanely short period of time.

I'm all for a shorter refire rate, just not "too" short.

Hellsfury
09-13-2004, 03:26 AM
Yes, I'm tallking about "hard" targets (gens and such) where it deals damage and bounces back immediately. Standing close to one of these with a short enough refire rate will let someone kill a gen in an insanely short period of time.

I'm all for a shorter refire rate, just not "too" short.

True.

Zustiur
09-13-2004, 03:51 AM
Standing close to one of these with a short enough refire rate will let someone kill it in an insanely short period of time.

I'm all for a shorter refire rate, just not "too" short.

Yes... although I think that won't make much difference. It takes very little time to destroy gens with anything... because of hand grenades.
If you have hand grenades, gens die in about 2 seconds anyway... using spawn gear.

Zustiur.

GB.Arkady
09-13-2004, 03:55 AM
One of the neat things about the buckler is it's really a three-in-one weapon.

it's a ranged anti-personnel weapon

it's a melee weapon (body blocking and repulsing for damage)

and it's a protection/offensive device in that it can reflect incoming projectiles and attacks back at their attackers.

With this many functions, maybe it shouldnt do any one of three extremely well, but reasonably at least. Otherwise it's too uber.

But what is a reasonable level of function?