VaporTrail
08-30-2004, 06:41 PM
Ok, I've tried HO in T:V recently, and while I think the "position" is mostly balanced, there are three main areas that I think need discussion, if not change in some form. These are tied together somewhat, and reinforce each other at points.
Spawn Invulnerability, Access, and Spawn Placement.
Lets take Access first. It's mainly a map issue, but I think "map design" shouldn't be neglected even this late. This crops up on Winterlake, where you have a SINGLE entry point (available to the enemy). if there's ONE halfway smart defender, your chances of getting into that base are slim and being sneaky doesn't help much. Add to that the difficulty of taking down the base generator (enter, turn around THEN fire), and HO is forced into a mainly "clearing role" outside. When the gen comes down, the force grid defending the rear entrance comes down, which is something, becase a well coordinated team will have someone waiting to take advantage of that fact, but all in all taking down the gen means little. However this leads into my second point:
Spawn Placement: Imagine if you will the following scenario. You just got toasted by an HO entering your base on Winterlake. You respawn 2 seconds later to find your gen under attack. You kill Mr. HO and run grab the repair pack, jump up to the gen and repair the entire base (or in the case of the pheonix base, about half of it). Total elapsed time, approx ~15 seconds. What I'm getting at: The Winterlake bases are HARD to rape, simply because of thier single chokepoint design. Placing the ONLY spawn point within the preferred area of operation for any HO makes it impossible to hold, and placing the recovery station within spitting distance makes it unlikely to remain down for more than a couple of seconds. Which brings me to my third and final point:
Spawn invulnerability. Sure, I can see the need for some spawn invulnerability, if just to counter people who spam spawnspheres with mortars from afar trying to get "easy" kills. However, There's a point where this invulnerability is unbalanced and detracts from somene who's been sneaky or skilled enough to get into a position of power (HO in close quarters). Now I've been fighting off and playing HO for a while in T2 competition and pickups, and if I've learned anything from that it's this: a good HO in your base, set, with your gen down is akin to being dressed in raw meat in the tiger cage at the zoo, with one hand tied to an ankle. In comparison that situation in the T:V maps so far I've found that an HO in the base causes about as much worry as a facial zit. Mildly unplesant, but no where NEAR crippling if you know how to deal with it. In all cases, people spawn so close to the HO's "Sweet Spot" (basically where the HO would love to be fighting off spawners) that they can get to him while still invincible. This, coupled with the audio warning for gen attacks and "offlines" gives any defense (even a mediocre one) more than enough power to deal with the problem and repair the damage. Also in most cases, spawners spawn so close to inventory stations that they often are suited and on thier way out of the base before thier invulnerability wears off. This plays havoc with the HO's shock factor.
Case in point: Cavern. Two linked spawnspheres, single spawn location. Main base has TWO recovery stations, and the gen, AND the repair station spawn. It IS probably the easiest base to access in the beta maps, but it is also a pain in the butt to successfully rape as well. People spawn, and if there's a HO in the vicinity they have a choice. Make a break for an inventory station if operational (get a repair pack AND better weaponry/armor) or simply fight off the HO with spawn gear. Either way the spawner's likely to get the telling blow. Even if the HO chucks a mortar and gets around a corner, the spawner just has to weather the blast and then ream the HO, (assuming of course the knockback doesn't throw the spawner out the door). Even if they made a break for a station, the spawner will weather the blast with no damage, even after succesfully accessing the station (which may be obliterated by the HO in the meantime). In other words the HO is fighting from a disadvantage in what is supposed to be his favorite environment, a dead enemy base.
Again, most of this is mainly "map design" dependant... however, having the repair packs and spawns in such close proximity to the gens (on all maps) seems to me to nearly eliminate the HO's main mission, to take and hold enemy assets and deny the use of them for as long as possible.
Suggested changes:
Spawn invulnerability needs to end QUICKER. 1 second max, firing of a weapon cancels, throwing of a grenade cancels, pickup of a deployable or pack cancels (ground or station pickup), weapon damage caused to player cancels (still rules out first shot kills but leaves them open to subsequent shots, lets speedpack HO actually kill spawners).
The rest of it could be solved with map changes. Say, placing recovery stations at the "secondary" base in Cavern, (maybe along with the repair station spawn,) instead of directly below the gen, or moving the spawn sphere out of the Winterlake bases (where to, I dunno exactly, but there's quite a LOT of "useless" room on that map). The only other possible suggestion I can make is change the location of the force grid from the back entrance to the front. This would allow more "sneak and kill" work for HO. (minor thing: force grids look to solid to some, took me a while to realize that I could pass through them (perhaps some transparency?) and it seems to channel foot traffic straight through the HO's only route in, rather than splitting it between the "friendly only exit") Isle is probably the most "HO friendly of the lot... no real changes needed, though moving the recovery station from it's current location, perhaps out to near the flagstand... Emerald right now seems to be a good balance of HO accessability and denyabilty with spawner location to me. I think I just like how the map plays right now in that respect.
Anyone holding a dissenting opinion is welcome to present rational discourse.
And for the apathetic:
Cliff* notes:
Reading is good for you.
*Please note that Cliff is solely a figment of my imagination.
However that doesn't invalidate any point that he chooses to raise.
Spawn Invulnerability, Access, and Spawn Placement.
Lets take Access first. It's mainly a map issue, but I think "map design" shouldn't be neglected even this late. This crops up on Winterlake, where you have a SINGLE entry point (available to the enemy). if there's ONE halfway smart defender, your chances of getting into that base are slim and being sneaky doesn't help much. Add to that the difficulty of taking down the base generator (enter, turn around THEN fire), and HO is forced into a mainly "clearing role" outside. When the gen comes down, the force grid defending the rear entrance comes down, which is something, becase a well coordinated team will have someone waiting to take advantage of that fact, but all in all taking down the gen means little. However this leads into my second point:
Spawn Placement: Imagine if you will the following scenario. You just got toasted by an HO entering your base on Winterlake. You respawn 2 seconds later to find your gen under attack. You kill Mr. HO and run grab the repair pack, jump up to the gen and repair the entire base (or in the case of the pheonix base, about half of it). Total elapsed time, approx ~15 seconds. What I'm getting at: The Winterlake bases are HARD to rape, simply because of thier single chokepoint design. Placing the ONLY spawn point within the preferred area of operation for any HO makes it impossible to hold, and placing the recovery station within spitting distance makes it unlikely to remain down for more than a couple of seconds. Which brings me to my third and final point:
Spawn invulnerability. Sure, I can see the need for some spawn invulnerability, if just to counter people who spam spawnspheres with mortars from afar trying to get "easy" kills. However, There's a point where this invulnerability is unbalanced and detracts from somene who's been sneaky or skilled enough to get into a position of power (HO in close quarters). Now I've been fighting off and playing HO for a while in T2 competition and pickups, and if I've learned anything from that it's this: a good HO in your base, set, with your gen down is akin to being dressed in raw meat in the tiger cage at the zoo, with one hand tied to an ankle. In comparison that situation in the T:V maps so far I've found that an HO in the base causes about as much worry as a facial zit. Mildly unplesant, but no where NEAR crippling if you know how to deal with it. In all cases, people spawn so close to the HO's "Sweet Spot" (basically where the HO would love to be fighting off spawners) that they can get to him while still invincible. This, coupled with the audio warning for gen attacks and "offlines" gives any defense (even a mediocre one) more than enough power to deal with the problem and repair the damage. Also in most cases, spawners spawn so close to inventory stations that they often are suited and on thier way out of the base before thier invulnerability wears off. This plays havoc with the HO's shock factor.
Case in point: Cavern. Two linked spawnspheres, single spawn location. Main base has TWO recovery stations, and the gen, AND the repair station spawn. It IS probably the easiest base to access in the beta maps, but it is also a pain in the butt to successfully rape as well. People spawn, and if there's a HO in the vicinity they have a choice. Make a break for an inventory station if operational (get a repair pack AND better weaponry/armor) or simply fight off the HO with spawn gear. Either way the spawner's likely to get the telling blow. Even if the HO chucks a mortar and gets around a corner, the spawner just has to weather the blast and then ream the HO, (assuming of course the knockback doesn't throw the spawner out the door). Even if they made a break for a station, the spawner will weather the blast with no damage, even after succesfully accessing the station (which may be obliterated by the HO in the meantime). In other words the HO is fighting from a disadvantage in what is supposed to be his favorite environment, a dead enemy base.
Again, most of this is mainly "map design" dependant... however, having the repair packs and spawns in such close proximity to the gens (on all maps) seems to me to nearly eliminate the HO's main mission, to take and hold enemy assets and deny the use of them for as long as possible.
Suggested changes:
Spawn invulnerability needs to end QUICKER. 1 second max, firing of a weapon cancels, throwing of a grenade cancels, pickup of a deployable or pack cancels (ground or station pickup), weapon damage caused to player cancels (still rules out first shot kills but leaves them open to subsequent shots, lets speedpack HO actually kill spawners).
The rest of it could be solved with map changes. Say, placing recovery stations at the "secondary" base in Cavern, (maybe along with the repair station spawn,) instead of directly below the gen, or moving the spawn sphere out of the Winterlake bases (where to, I dunno exactly, but there's quite a LOT of "useless" room on that map). The only other possible suggestion I can make is change the location of the force grid from the back entrance to the front. This would allow more "sneak and kill" work for HO. (minor thing: force grids look to solid to some, took me a while to realize that I could pass through them (perhaps some transparency?) and it seems to channel foot traffic straight through the HO's only route in, rather than splitting it between the "friendly only exit") Isle is probably the most "HO friendly of the lot... no real changes needed, though moving the recovery station from it's current location, perhaps out to near the flagstand... Emerald right now seems to be a good balance of HO accessability and denyabilty with spawner location to me. I think I just like how the map plays right now in that respect.
Anyone holding a dissenting opinion is welcome to present rational discourse.
And for the apathetic:
Cliff* notes:
Reading is good for you.
*Please note that Cliff is solely a figment of my imagination.
However that doesn't invalidate any point that he chooses to raise.