An in-deapth look at Vengeance armor design

I'll be honest, I really don't know enough about Diamond Sword backstory, but yes, I have heard about a zen philosophy with them. If that's the case the samurai armor would be an excellent influence.

Yes, the samurai theme would work quite well. Any number of asiatic themes would work actually (including ninjas). If you could pull of a mix of themes that'd probably end up looking pretty good without being obviously from one group or another, other than the DS that is. The DS followed the Enlightened Master out into the Wilderzone which had a very Buddha feeling to it with them listening to his teachings. The DS often use wooden swords in their practice seesions much like you'd see in a number of oriental martial arts as well as have ceremonial wooden swords that could still deliver a painful blow yet are rarely used as such, usually only used to signify status. One of the member of the Triad for instance, the Unyielding, has such a sword to signify his position. The three positions of the Triad are the Unyielding, the Pure, and the Reflective. The rest of the DS then follows one of those general schools of thought yet they all co-mingle and still fit together. Certain facets lean more towards other professions than others though. A member of the Unyielding facet is more likely to be a long term, hardcore career warrior for example. Or a member of the Reflective is more likely to be a teacher, either of history, the Enlightened Masters teachings, or just general training of other warriors. Doesn't mean a Reflective can't be a hardened warrior as well though.

I fully endorse giving the diamond sword a more oriental themed look.

I fully endorse giving the diamond sword a more oriental themed look.
doing a culturally based armor set goes completely against the vengence design philosophy of associating shapes with tribes. e.g:

Pheonix=round/sphere
Imperial=Boxes/square
BE=sharp/pointy/triangles

so....

DS=Asians? :huh:

It just doesnt fit together.

Yeah, the Diamond Sword have always had a decidedly Eastern bent to their aesthetic.

Maybe I'll see if I can come up with some hand-drawn concepts for possible armor designs. That's about all I can do, considering I have no capability to model or render or do anything remotely REAL relating to such a project.

doing a culturally based armor set goes completely against the vengence design philosophy of associating shapes with tribes. e.g:

Pheonix=round/sphere
Imperial=Boxes/square
BE=sharp/pointy/triangles

so....

DS=Asians? :huh:

It just doesnt fit together.


Well that's why you pick up something from the samurai armor and then work with that. For me I notice the arc thing in the helmets and the plane shoulder plates.

So I dunno, arc, line, something around there.

Yeah, the Diamond Sword have always had a decidedly Eastern bent to their aesthetic.

Maybe I'll see if I can come up with some hand-drawn concepts for possible armor designs. That's about all I can do, considering I have no capability to model or render or do anything remotely REAL relating to such a project.


Please do, I'm rather stumped on what it should all look like myself. It seems like there is one correct design, and we just havn't seen it yet, but when we do it will make sense.

The concept I'm running through my head so far for the DS armors...

- Lots of fancy arabesque engravings to contrast the relatively smooth and undecorated surfaces of the BE/CotP/Imperial armor.

- A general shape that's a middle ground between the sharp edges and triangles of the BE and the roundness of the CotP. Imperial squarishness just doesn't suit the DS to me.

- Steel gray general color highlighted by chrome, gold, and/or green lights, like the old-school T1 and T2 DS skins.

- Much more of a samurai feel to the head designs than the T1 and T2 armors.

I'll be back with sketches sometime soon, probably crudely drawn with pencil and gel pen.

Well that's why you pick up something from the samurai armor and then work with that. For me I notice the arc thing in the helmets and the plane shoulder plates.

So I dunno, arc, line, something around there.


I have a hard time seeing any cultural motivations behind the existing armors (but maybe they are just hidden to me). So thats why I think a samurai type armor would look out of place in comparison, especially considering you are going to such lengths to observe design motifs in the armors.

I was thinking octrahedron/decahedron/dodecahedron would be pretty cool shapes. Maybe something radial, yet polygonal, kinda like a spiders web.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dodecahedron.html

- Steel gray general color highlighted by chrome, gold, and/or green lights, like the old-school T1 and T2 DS skins.
:lol:

since they are azn you might as well go all out rice them out with ground effects, huge cannon tailpipes, and a bigass whalebone spoiler (or whatever they call them)

if you think about it you curretnly have 1 3 and 4 sides, so the how about a shape with 2 sides. i think a moon shape might look good like this shape, and if you rotated it 90degrees you could still make a T like shape helmet...
http://www.ph.u-net.com/mavica/moon/r/moon-990419-2032r.jpg

For general tribal aesthetic, i'm going to quote the post i made in the original diamond sword project thread (http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267159&page=1). :)

Some notes i made the last time this thread popped up on the front page. This is essentially a list of things that i believe contribute to the overall cultural "feel" of the Diamond Sword tribe. This was all taken from studying the Tribes 1 and 2 armors for half an hour or so.

Diamond Sword - Tribes 1
- The DS armor in T1 has a very "gilded" motif. That is to say it includes things such as
|- extra intricacies, designs, engravings etc
|- addornments/ornamental additions

- some almost organic looking designs/motifs
|- flowing designs, rounded spirals and intertwining, etc.
- a horned beast (possibly a goat?) appears in some of the design motifs
(i a.ssume this is where Sarcastic's "horned" theme logos come from)

- Some visual references to medieval or "traditional" armor
|- (ie. chainmail, interlocking plates, etc.)
|- the armors have helms, as opposed to helmets

- the armor has a partially cybernetic appearance
|- there are more visible armor functionality areas (vs the other tribes, ex. PHOENIX)
|- LEDs!! every single armor contains blue LEDs!
|- circuits, cableing, wires, etc.
|- rivets (more related to the medieval amor than the cyernetic feel)

- all of the armor designs contain symmetry to some extent

Diamond Sword - Tribes 2
- the DS armor in Tribes 2 contains a very strong "raidiance" theme
|- ALL of the armors have panels, lines, etc ("rays") being emitted from some central point.
|- these rays are colored gold, to further enhance the visual effect

- the DS armor in T2 is less "guilded" than in T1, it has a more streamlined appearance
|- the armor is smoother (less like plating, medieval), and has a more molded appearance
|- armor has more engraved lines as ornamentation

- the cybernetic "feel" is gone (aka no "funcitonality" areas are visible, save some small areas on the arms)
|- again, a much more molded appearance

- some wing-like designs are apparent (similar to the Tribes 1 exe icon) on the light armor cla.sses

Things that help "make" the Diamond Sword (visually)
(ie. things that help to say "this is DS!")

- SYMMETRY
|- circles (especially prominent in T2 designs)
|- arcs, hemispheres etc.

- BASIC GEOMETRICAL FORMS OR POLYGONS
|- (ex. the rectangular rays on the Diamond Sword tribe logo)

- lines (engraving lines in the armor, polygonal shapes, etc)

- the "suit of armor" feel (traditional armor)
|- T1 armor contains vents, layering of plates, engraving/seams where the plates come together

- LED's are something that are particularly prevailant in the T1 armors.

-----------------------------------------------

I suppose this information is more related to skinning armor than it is to designing logos for the tribe (which seems to be the prevailant purpose of this thread), but i figure, what the heck, i'll post it anyway. :)

I believe that since the designers for Tribes Vengeance decided to develop visual styles for the tribes that come at an earlier point in time, the DS armors should follow the same ideas. That means' basically sticking closer to Tribes 1's Diamond Sword, versus Tribes 2's. So, going for a cla.ssical armored look, and possibly exaggerating the cybernetic feel of the tribal armor.

I don't have much to say on logos, unfortunately, as i don't have copies of the building textures for DS easily available (read as: i haven't gone and ripped them out of their vol/vl2 files yet.), but i'm willing to bet that they follow the "basic geometrical/polygon shapes" ideal, especially with regards to T1.

As to my personal choice for a tribal logo, i'd like to see a simplification of the T1 DS logo (similar to the Children of Phoenix's Vengeance logo, in relation to it's T1 counterpart). Though i realise this is hard to do, as the T1 logo is already highly simplified, i think it could be possible to come up with something that still looks good. I have a couple ideas, but this post is already rediculously long, so i'll save those for some other time. :)

As for a samurai type look... realistically that wouldn't exactly mesh with Zen Buddhism, but it's an interesting idea. I personally don't know much about Zen, but i don't think samurai actually follow the same ideology. Semantics, regardless.

If you're looking for a basic "intro to the Diamond Sword", check out the Tribes 1 manual on the RDB (http://www.tribalwar.com/rdb/index.php?fileid=2020). It's got an info page on each tribe (DS is page 10). Personally i think it gives a very good idea of what the Diamond Sword are all about.

If you want more, browse through Prophecy of Tears (http://www.tribes2.com/4_2_0_story.html), the T2 prelude that Blake Hutchins wrote up. Specifically this page (http://www.tribes2.com/4_2_09_triad.html), for starters.

break the mold...

doing a culturally based armor set goes completely against the vengence design philosophy of associating shapes with tribes. e.g:

Pheonix=round/sphere
Imperial=Boxes/square
BE=sharp/pointy/triangles

so....

DS=Asians? :huh:

It just doesnt fit together.

Ok why don't you tell us what primary color and basic shape we should use.
How about green cylinders??
Would that make you happy?

heh. I wonder what the DS would look like with a green trim?
Not a bad idea actually... hrmmmmm...
Don't know about the cylinders though, cones maybe?

Anyway, I said that there could be an design influence of asian armor.
I didn't say it had to look like some sort of japanese gundam figurine.
Just have an infuence here and there.
Mix it with the medieval european (norman?) viewing slit and cut off a lot of the silly dangly bits. Sorta steamline and mix it with something else.

I think one of the main points you might want to keep in mind, is that it should look Tribes-retro.
Lots of exposed wires, pipes, tubes, joints, pistons and mechanical fiddly bits.

Tell you what lucious.
I can't character model worth a damn, but my roomie is a really good artist (and meber who lurks in the GGG thread. heh.) I might be able to draft him into the cause.
I could get a bunch good pictures of different types of armor to use as referance.
I'll post them in this thread tomorrow. Sound good?

As for a samurai type look... realistically that wouldn't exactly mesh with Zen Buddhism, but it's an interesting idea. I personally don't know much about Zen, but i don't think samurai actually follow the same ideology. Semantics, regardless.



Well, no. Going full-on Samurai would probably not mix with Zen ideology perfectly, but then we are talking about battle zen of the far, far, future. Might as well throw those rules out the window.
Anyway, there are zen archers. They don't really have a costume that is able to be converted into armor though.
http://www.oasis-centre.com/images/kombucha_archer.jpg

I'm thinking loose robes and jetpacks don't mix too well... :p

Well, like I said I won't be able to make bodies, but if someone produces a general dummy body I can build armor into and around it. As for a DS model going 'against' the design concepts of the three, whos to say this is WRONG? You could argue that the BE is a mix of CP and IP as the BE armor has a roundy, not block look, but with 'pointy' elements.
To make a DS one, you just need to come up with a median mix of the same shapes that define the armors on their own.
Besides, these differences never existed before with the exception of the BioDerm. lets all be a bit more positive here, as this is a rather large undertaking but worth the effort.

There is a basic form in that shot, though, Neek: it's a cross, made by the bow and arrow.

I can see that design philosophy in the models posted in the original thread:

http://www.phoenix-blaze.com/~sirlucius/dspose3.gif

The same cross formed by a sword, and the same as the original emblem. There is also the half-moon from the center of the emblem, which can be used in the design of the breast plate.

Almost everything in the original design follows the basic structure that is everything we know of the DS. The feet could be reworked, but it all comes together.

So, I propose that the design scheme for DS, following the circle, square, and triangle - also 1, 3, and 4 sides - should be the sword cross and the half-moon, each having 2 sides.

I volunteer to help with the Diamond Sword project for T:V - I know how to use Maya and 3DS quite well and have done some stuff for UT2004, which uses the same engine. Haven't published anything though.

After that I think I might work on making human sized mini cybrids.

break the mold...

It's good to be original, but I'm absolutly against this. The project goal is to create models that can stand next to the originals. If this was contained there wouldn't be a problem, but I don't think people would take the models seriously (and thus not use them) if they stuck out too much.

After that I think I might work on making human sized mini cybrids.

I thought the Starsiege 2845 team would be doing some of those already...