stalemates and turtling in T:V?

My premise is that extended turtling time is not fun. Particularly if it is nigh impossible to break (but on the flip side less bad if it is hard to turtle well). Anyway... I've done a quick search and will paste some quotes from ppl talking about the issues surrounding this subject, which I think has not been fully addressed. At least not openly.


Here are some ideas
taken from: http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228507&page=1&pp=20

forcefields on bases
Make an artificial boundary (visible or otherwise) on the doors to bases that causes the flag to bounce off the player (a la T2 OOB grid) back into the playing field.

auto-return timer
I'd suggest having a timer that begins only after the second team's flag is taken (when the stalemate actually begins). The timer would continue to tick away until a flag is returned and if neither flag gets back to its stand within the timeframe, both are automatically popped back to their stands.

The trick is to determine an acceptable time for a stalemate to exist before it begins to adversely affect gameplay.

turtling is boring?
Watch IE vs 5150 on RD. One big mad turtle - 2 of the very best teams in T1 playing to a stalemate. I'm sure the result was unsatisfying for both sides regardless of outcome (1 to 0? don't remember). Does it matter that it was "somebody's fault?" Not at all.

An automatic return adds urgency and creates diversity in gameplay while preserving the turtle as a viable tactic (say for 5 mins max).

but there are different kinds of 'turtling'
ive seen stalemates go for 5 mins+ but that doesnt mean there was a lack of action, lots of drops & pickups by both teams. I think that is where the auto return isnt needed. In situations where niether team is getting a good crack at the flag, the timer is a good idea.

mojotooth points out that cappers will line up for the auto-return, and proposes an adjustment (from http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203791 )
Won't work because cappers will be inbound to snag the flag as it is returning. You need to randomize the return time somewhat so that neither team is able to anticipate when it happens. And don't give warning either, simply return both flags at some point after x amount of minutes + some random number of seconds.

Some people also argue that stalemates is largely a fault of map design, heres a thread where the specifics about that are discussed: http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272495
regarding turtling; avoid choke points in bases

Now here are some out-of-the-box ideas (which are not so turtle specific, but worthy of notice imo) taken from CTF Plus (http://hope.oznet.com/pjsite/showitems.php?i=26) :
When an enemy player drops your flag in the field it will not return after 46 seconds like it does in standard CTF. It will sit in the field for 10 MINUTES before automatically returning. So you better pick it up and bring it back to your flag stand before the enemy gets around to grabbing it again.

If the flag is dropped in "Lava" it will return in 3 seconds. So no dumping your flag in the lava in an effort to keep people from taking your flag.

If the flag is dropped in "Water" the return timer is shortened to 1 minute.


First of all I hope IG note the shortening of return timer when flag is in water/lava. If indeed they think it shouldn't be something to take advantage of...
I think it's an interresting system CTF Plus uses about having to take the flag all the way home, but that is probably, if ever, only suitable for very very small maps and like 4 players per side I would think.


But BACK TO TURTLING

questions:
Is turtling a tactic that should be left open to be taken advantage of?

But what if there are bad extremes? (I for one can't foresee how the TV packs will support turtling).

Is an auto-return system a good solution? (If so I think it should be a random time, after 5 min for example, with a clear announcement).

IG: How easy is it to turtle in T:V?

Is the flag disc-able (can it be disced into hard to reach spaces)?

i demand cliffnotes

i demand members dont make demands

I demand members not making comments about members not making demands.

Turtle! Turtle!
Whats a matter? Am I not Tutely enough for the Turtle club?

I would have to agree that a map which incourages players to work hard at getting inside and attacking generators also opens itself up to turtling. I don't know if I would agree with the idea of an OOB grid system being placed on the entrances to bases for the fact often times one needs to get in and inv up quickly then back out again. Kata is an example of this type of quick inv'ing up. Perhaps an OOB type system located further into the base so as to allow the flag carrier a little shelter from raining mortars etc. This way you allow access to certain resources with a little more cover but not turtling.

Members cant make demands.. Veteran 4?!?!



pffffffffffttttttttt!!!!! !!! :fight: :domotwak:

:ladysman: Chicks love members :angel:

IMO, the best and easiest solution is to not allow the flag to be carried into bases.

If the capper needs to recharge he should either pass it off or use a remote inventory.

I actually never had a problem w/ turtling in matches as long as there was a point to it, i.e. the winning team doing it and not the losing team just so they dont get capped out. Yes, it may be frustrating, but it's a part of the strategy :shrug: . There's only a few teams that ever did it consistantly, and they were never really that good anyway. Besides, they always provided countless pages of entertaining tribes drama.

Members cant make demands.. Veteran 4?!?!



pffffffffffttttttttt!!!!! !!! :fight: :domotwak:

:ladysman: Chicks love members :angel:

Someone disable this members use of smilies. He's grossly abusing his privilege to express emotion through forum smiley tags.

Thanks in advance.

:)

Well we don't really know if turtling is a problem yet unless you have played the game, which is still changing. Maybe the pace of the game won't allow for long trutling. I've noticed that the CTF map we've seen was very open and easy to attack from different positions.

Besides that, I think flag stand offs added excitement to some of the matches that were played on good maps and not on the stupid HoustonVec maps.

the onyl map i hated being turtled on was RQ. other than that all the other maps were pretty easy to break into so turtling was never really a problem for me

i demand members dont make demands


I demand you suck my nuts

Just wondering: will there be concussion grenades to have someone drop their flag?

This worked very well in T2 :p

No, there will only be one type of nad in T:V. The type that goes booom..

On turteling: I think the effectiveness of a turtle is more up to the map design, than game physics and weapons:

T1: IR contra DX
T2: Recal contra DBS

as Damrod said, turtling was only really a tactic on the maps that allowed it. Standoffs are a huge part of Tribes and having a auto-return timer would be plain stupid. Especially on maps that encourages "fun" standoffs. Having them broke by some random timer would screw up the game if you ask me.

Plus, I'm pretty sure some IG representative said that you couldnt disc the flag around.

I don't think you should artificially restrict something unless it has been proven to not work at all.

In competition, that is.

As for pubs, I think there is no shame in removing or restricting un-fun things like turtling.

Fstat has the option to vote for a flag return. I don't think anything beyond that is needed.

Turtling is the result of bad map design where there are (a) bases are too big (lots of hiding places), or (b) there are few ways to get inside the base. RD and IR are perfect examples of this. RD for having only one way to get inside the base, and IR for having both A and B. DX is a perfect example of a non-turtle map. If you go inside your base, you'll be disc/mortar spammed.