[T:V] The sensor system

I don't see the reason for no IFF on enemies when the sensor is down. Like nordy said, it makes a difference (what we've seen from T2 w/sj pack). It's good enough to just have no radar when the sensor goes down.

Also, I don't think there should be flag icons. You shouldn't be able to snipe a capper if they're out of your visible distance range. Well you might hit them if you're lucky, but you shouldn't be able to know exactly what height they are so you can snipe like that. I think having the flag location just on the radar is good enough, like it is in UT2k4 CTF. It prevents hiding during turtles and the cheap snipes. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the flag location on the radar should be visible when the sensor is down. That could be something to tweak during beta...If you make it so they're not visible when the sensor's down it makes the sensor much more valuable, and if you make them always visible, it decreases the value of keeping the sensor up.

Pretty much from what I read in KP's first post this is my opinion on the changes:
*New Command Screen: Excellent idea from what it sounds like.
*New Respawn: Once again, it sounds good as it will add some more depth to the game without slowing the pace. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to also allow you to select your respawn site while being alive when using the screen.
*No Manual Waypoints: It sounds like there is enough feedback in the game on deployables, base items and status, etc. that this won't be an issue.

*New Sensor System: I prefer the Tribes 1 sensor system. Yes, most people aren't aware of what sensors do or how important they are, but the singleplayer of Tribes: Vengenace can be used to teach the subtle aspects of sensors.

For instance, I've always liked how the pulse sensors are line of sight so with some terrain you can fly under radar, etc. to sneak up on a flag or find a good offensive sniping spot.

In T:V, to emphasize sensors I'd give them line of sight detection for the whole map. Meaning that some maps might have one sensor, while others might have more than one depending on the geography.

Motion sensors were a good idea due to being able to have subtle detection that won't show up in your sensor warning bar, but that might be too subtle/esoteric of a feature.

Overall though, I do like the idea of making sensors more important for players, but I do think that the line of sight limitation is needed, which of course would probably also mean the inclusion of deployable sensors.

One thing that might be interesting (or it might be simply annoying) is that your objective updates on base status depends on your sensors. If a sensor is down, the items near that sensor no longer report their status to you.

That way sensors both report enemy status such as player and flag location, as well as base status.

Edit- After reading some of the posts in this thread, the idea of having no base sensors but instead making all sensors deployables I think is a good idea as well.

So I take it this means no deployable sensors. Thats a major bummer in my opinon. One of the best things you can do for your team is deploy pulse and motion sensors at your enemies base, as it allows you not only the ease of spotting enemies, but the ability to see all their defenses (deployables included) on your command screen. That and enemies are usually don't notice them provided you place them well.

I take it this new system will exclude that info, so you can infact only see the enemy and the flag when your pulse is active.

I'm not gonna jerk, but this is one thing I definately dislike. Seems way too over simplified.

Perhaps my understanding of the system is flawed in which case my argument wouldn't make sense, but...

The thing I'm personally not liking about this radar idea is it sounds like it's impossible to hide when the sensor is up. Hide and seek is a fun and skill-adding part of the game... and now it seems as if it's being removed. So I guess I'm kinda wondering what the radar is adding to the gameplay to make this loss worth it. (Not just being rhetorical here, actually wondering)

So since just jerking isn't too useful, what about this...
What if an enemie's appearance on your radar was not just dependent on the sensor being up, but also on your line of sight. That is, if you could see them were you turned towards them, and the radar is up, then they show on your sensor.

Personally, I consider the line of sight of the people I'm playing against very heavily. I often take actions specifically in order to mess with people's perception of my position. For example, one might duck behind a hill while moving somewhat to the left. Then once out of sight quickly move to the right. Then when someone comes to get you they're looking in the wrong place and you have an advantage for your efforts and thought. If they had a radar they'd just make a bee-line for your red dot and there's no thought involved.

Another big example for this is indoor combat. It would be a huge deal to be able to know the positions of every enemy in your base at any point in time. The same cat and mouse thinking game happens here and the radar would effectively remove that too.

I understand the whole make the gameplay more varied idea, but it seems to me the sensor would still be a very valueable asset and preserve that purpose if the radar were also based on the player's line of sight. It doesn't really make sense to me to remove a fun, thought requiring, and skill-based part of the game just to make the sensor more valueable when the same thing can be accomplished without removing that part.

That said, I do like the ideas of the sensor controlling the IFFs and flag finder.

well, it seems a new position is coming about..
henry on sensor. :roller:

Hmm, wow, I didn't even notice the Flag Finder in T2. I've never used the Command screen in either T1 or T2, relying on my LoS and general awareness to locate cappers. But now that I think about it, the Flag Finder does make chasing much easier. It doesn't really matter to me whether or not the FF stays in T:V. I care more about the chase itself than the process of locating the capper. However, those stupid trails have got to go. They are ugly =P The Flag Capper should just glow or something. Back to FF; cappers should be much more concerned about the Grappling Hook. Currently, players can use the hook to latch on to other players, effectively killing all momentum for the attached victim. In addition, players can remain latched onto another player, even while they use another weapon to shoot them. Essentially, the current form of the grappling hook threatens to kill all offense. I play LD all the time, so this would probably make my job too easy, while ruining the game for cappers and HO.

We've considered also showing enemy player indicators using some combination of short range and/or LOS, regardless of the state of your sensor. This isn't a crazy idea.

Some people suggest that not having a sensor up will be too much of a disadvantage. You do still have eyes though...and as ZProtoss suggested, we can control how easy it is to destroy/repair a sensor.

Some people suggest that having a sensor up will be too much of an advantage. Did you know that some T1 players (Felonius and BurnYaBad come to mind) played with scripts that allowed them to display miniature command screens in the corner of their HUD at all times? Seeing icons for enemy players at all times is certainly helpful, but it doesn't turn you into a superstar.

T:V has a sytem similar to T1 waypoints, which is in turn similar to UT2K4's flag icons. Objective icons stick to the edge of your radar and show a range. So, an option is to not have a flag icon in the HUD at all but preserve the flag icons in the radar. The radar flag icons still give you an idea where the flags are, but don't allow you to pinpoint exactly where.


What if an enemie's appearance on your radar was not just dependent on the sensor being up, but also on your line of sight. That is, if you could see them were you turned towards them, and the radar is up, then they show on your sensor.
Also not a crazy idea, though you need to define exactly what line of sight means. If you mean anyone in your visible screen, then in T:V everyone will pretty much be marked most of the time anyway. If you mean anyone in your visible screen within a certain range, then it becomes more restricted, but a potential problem is icons flashing on and off without anyone understanding why (in which case you might as well not have them at all, which is yet another option).

One nice thing about the on/off system is that it can be easily fed back to players. If your radar is a bit fuzzy, you know why you can't see enemy icons on it. And there are currently in-game announcements (yes, the voices are temporary) for objective changes (like flag pickups), generators going offline, and sensors going offline,
KP

T:V has a sytem similar to T1 waypoints, which is in turn similar to UT2K4's flag icons. Objective icons stick to the edge of your radar and show a range. So, an option is to not have a flag icon in the HUD at all but preserve the flag icons in the radar. The radar flag icons still give you an idea where the flags are, but don't allow you to pinpoint exactly where.
Sounds much nicer now, thanks for the clarification.

Not to mention (again) that the bases are likely to be larger than your standard T1/2 base, and with the Grapple's "hangman" ability, finding a flag during a match double turtle situation can be something of a bore.

Where exactly did you get that tidbit. I've not seen it mentioned anywhere that the bases will be bigger than the in-some-cases gigantic T2 bases.

Also not a crazy idea, though you need to define exactly what line of sight means. If you mean anyone in your visible screen, then in T:V everyone will pretty much be marked most of the time anyway. If you mean anyone in your visible screen within a certain range, then it becomes more restricted, but a potential problem is icons flashing on and off without anyone understanding why (in which case you might as well not have them at all, which is yet another option).
Well, if a straight line can be drawn between Joe and Bob without going through terrain or buildings and Joe's sensor is up then Bob shows up on Joe's radar.

*snip*

Could you address the deployable sensor issue? I mean honestly, you guys put in a deployable slot that seems tailor made for a deployable sensor, but are using an all or nothing solution instead. Other than simplicity and to place a ton of emphasis on the sensor, why make the thing cover the entire map? I can appreciate the need to make the game more accessible, but you don't have to make everything cut and dry.

Could you address the deployable sensor issue? I mean honestly, you guys put in a deployable slot that seems tailor made for a deployable sensor, but are using an all or nothing solution instead. Other than simplicity and to place a ton of emphasis on the sensor, why make the thing cover the entire map? I can appreciate the need to make the game more accessible, but you don't have to make everything cut and dry.

It's a nice added element, imo. Much like the GENS are now, in T:V we'll have an additional strategic element to protect/attack.

Sensors were rarely deployed in a pub..

T:V seems to put an increased focus on the Sensors, without making it overcomplicated. It's definately worth a play at least. :)

ZProtoss' idea of it having a set downtime before you can repair sounds like it could work. This gives more reason to attack it and adds even more depth to the strategic advantages of taking out the sensor. Just make it difficult to kill, make it take some effort.

It's a nice added element, imo. Much like the GENS are now, in T:V we'll have an additional strategic element to protect/attack.

Sensors were rarely deployed in a pub..

T:V seems to put an increased focus on the Sensors, without making it overcomplicated. It's definately worth a play at least. :)


Yes and the REASON sensors were rarely deployed was you had to trot out and plant one and then go back to base for your real pack. Having a deployable only slot remedies the problem nicely. It doesn't necessarily have to be super complicated, but I think there's such a thing as oversimplification too.

Some people suggest that having a sensor up will be too much of an advantage. Did you know that some T1 players (Felonius and BurnYaBad come to mind) played with scripts that allowed them to display miniature command screens in the corner of their HUD at all times? Seeing icons for enemy players at all times is certainly helpful, but it doesn't turn you into a superstar.

The difference is that they still are limited by their team's LOS, as you know. I use the command screen in a similar fashion, but still can't be sure of which OOB route the next carrier will be running.

In my opinion, awareness is the greatest skill a Tribes (1) player can have; this is going to be a skill that goes the way of the dinosaurs if the sensor network is dumbed down. The intuition cultivated by an experienced player will now be heightened and given away to ALL players. From a defensive perspective, this is going to make the game much less exciting, and the position significantly easier to play.

I'm withholding judgement until I can place this Tribes 1 perspective into T:V, but I see this new awareness as one of the biggest possible detractors from gameplay.

Yes and the REASON sensors were rarely deployed was you had to trot out and plant one and then go back to base for your real pack. Having a deployable only slot remedies the problem nicely. It doesn't necessarily have to be super complicated, but I think there's such a thing as oversimplification too.

The other problem, imo, are Sensor deployment is just plain boring. It's got little to no excitement or satisfaction at all.

"Dude, I just deployed 4 sensors.. I'm l33t!!"

Mines, Jump Pads, Turrets all give value to their deployment in an exciting way (some more than others).

The more I think about it, the more I welcome the IG change. :)

Some people suggest that having a sensor up will be too much of an advantage. Did you know that some T1 players (Felonius and BurnYaBad come to mind) played with scripts that allowed them to display miniature command screens in the corner of their HUD at all times? Seeing icons for enemy players at all times is certainly helpful, but it doesn't turn you into a superstar.

T:V has a sytem similar to T1 waypoints, which is in turn similar to UT2K4's flag icons. Objective icons stick to the edge of your radar and show a range. So, an option is to not have a flag icon in the HUD at all but preserve the flag icons in the radar. The radar flag icons still give you an idea where the flags are, but don't allow you to pinpoint exactly where.

KP

First, :lol: vav barn

Second, that system of flag identification would be better than the legends one I suggested earlier, I think. This way you can still prevent people from hiding in a little nook in a base for 25 minutes, but you also allow for sneaky routes if there isnt a rangefinder on the radar icon.

This one gets my vote :)

The other problem, imo, are Sensor deployment is just plain boring. It's got little to no excitement or satisfaction at all.

"Dude, I just deployed 4 sensors.. I'm l33t!!"

Mines, Jump Pads, Turrets all give value to their deployment in an exciting way (some more than others).

The more I think about it, the more I welcome the IG change. :)

The fact that the deployable slot is now separate alleviates this problem. You don't need a dedicated sensor guy when everyone can just have a sensor included in their loadout. Anyone can ski out and deploy a sensor along the way, or someone can say "hey we need a sensor at x position" and it can deployed without someone have to go back and forth to an inventory. The more I think about it, the more I think the deployable sensor is a perfect fit.

Has no one else considered that a huge flaw in the old system (the relative pain in the ass-ness of deploying sensors) has been aided by the introduction of a separate deployabe slot? A somewhat revamped big sensor sounds alright, but I still dislike it having cross-map range. Why not make use of another feature that was so highly touted? It would add another layer of depth as well.

I am very much in agreement with Sass on this one. One of the major reasons why no one used deployable sensors in pubs was because it would take up a pack slot. Also, I think most players practically forgot that deployable sensors existed because of the many other items available for that slot.

With the addition of a deployable slot, and the fact that the deployable items will spawn at a station and literally be "in your face," I think even pubs would see the widespread use of deployable sensors.

Deployable sensors could also augment the usefulness of the main Sensor Dish, while at the same time preventing the sensor net from being absolutely essential for effective teamplay, as I described it here; http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6305469# 6305469 .