[T:V] The sensor system

We never needed flag finder on tribes, and if you did you were whats called a cheater.

Yes it does make the capper more vunderable, but not in a good way. It makes it so that any moron that knows what the flag icon is, knows where the capper is and how far away he is. Any idiot that can see the icon, can manage to flag chase with accuracy by just watching it. And i think thats retarded and dumbs down the game.

And i wouldnt call you lazy id call you a newbie, if you mean out of bounds by oob, you should know you cant hide oob with flag. And its really not that fudgeing hard have at least one team mate know where the enemy capper is at all times. Hiding cappers was never a problem on tribes.

Er, I like the concept of making the sensor net more important, but I think this implementation is crap. The proposed system sounds like round-hole square peg to me.

Many people have brought up that sensor networks were undervalued in T1... but part of the reason was because deployables took up your pack slot. Now that you have a separate deployable slot, it would be SO much easier for people to pack along a deployable sensor and deploy it somewhere. You already had a solution to the sensor problem, but there are no deployable sensors? Bah.

You've also increased the value of the sensor net with the IFF mini radar. Having a overhead (and always onscreen) view of friend/foe positions is a great asset. If killing the network (be it single sensor or multiple) either 1) disables radar altogether (blanking the hud would be an interesting twist I think) or 2) makes it so friendlies foes off the radar and don't have red indicators unless in visual range then that is enough.

Overall, I don't like the 1 radar solution for many of the reasons already stated above. Full enemy location information from 1 sensor sounds way overpowered, and removes more strategy then it adds. I'm not a fan of the flag finder either. You guys already had a full or partial solution to the sensor problem in freeing up the deployable slot. Bring back deployable sensors and tone down the emphasis on the main sensor while making it a good asset.

Im not seeing what the big drama is here. yes its a little different, but if you get your mouth off the nipple of T2, you will adapt and see that easier isnt always better. Hell, they are even giving you a flag finder if you so decide to keep your sensor up. As for the IFFs, as long as the system is working properly (unlike early T2) it shouldnt be a huge adjustment. :shrug:

Yeah, green IFFs are always there regardless, so you always know who's friend and who's foe.

As for influence during beta, if the majority of people said, "Wtf is this sensor system, I don't understand it and it sucks," then of course we'd re-visit it.

I'll emphasize again that this system is intended to make radars, sensors, IFFs and flag indicators more obviously strategic. If you don't want the other team to have sensor information about you, destroy their sensor. If you don't care that they have sensor information about you, don't worry about their sensor. Whether or not you care about them having sensor information about you at any given moment will change depending on your situation and the strategy you choose to employ.

And gaining an advantage by destroying the other team's sensor doesn't force teamwork any more than clearing a flag stand and distracting the defense to help your flag carrier,
KP

I know you want to make flag indicators more strategic, but the end result will be the same as T2 :( . I can repost in here what I wrote in the TW video thread about indicators, if you want, but the gist is: the built in flag finder is the one thing that takes tribes out of tribes. That is, it removes the possibility of being creative. I know I've complained about a lot of things in the T:V development, but recently the videos have been causing me to re-evaluate. But the flag indicator is the one thing I can't stand from T2 :( . Hell, I bugged z0dd throughout his work on classic to remove it.

The perfect system, as I see it, is the one Legends has. A small indicator at each flag stand that shows only whether or not the flag has been grabbed. That is, when both flags are home, you have one green and one red indicator to represent this. When both flags are taken you have two gray indicators, when one is returned it returns to its respective colour.

This system allows the best of both worlds, I believe. There is a heads-up way of always knowing where your objective is on a map, and it also allows for the creativity of a capper to outsmart the defense by not having to worry that every single person knows exactly where he is at a glance. The main point of my other post was that flag indicators force a capper to make back-grabs 99.9% of the time in order to be effective against a semi-organised defense :( .

This is something I wrote a while ago regarding the new sensor net. Some of the information is outdated, as no deployable sensors have been announced, but I still think it's a good idea. The hacker issue might also be a bit outlandish, so ignore that as well if you'd like :)

---quote---
Originally Posted by Apotheosis

Personally I think that the knowledge that one player has on his/her command map should be distributed to all teammates all of the time. In other words, the knowledge (or lack thereof) of all player and flag positions should be identical among all teammates. I feel that the command map should work in such a manner because in the case in which individual players have certain knowledge that other teammates do not have, I see a few opportunities for exploits (a hacker could conceivably devise a method by which this "individual knowledge" could be distributed among the team). Having uniform knowledge among all teammates should eliminate this concern.

If the above suggestion is taken to heart, there remains the question of what the sensor dish (a sensor net broadcast station) will do. A team with a destroyed sensor dish should either face a nerfed command map (to be explained), or a disabled command map (no data at all). I feel that the latter would be much too disadvantageous, so some kind of nerfing is due.

Here is my proposal;
With a fully functional sensor dish, all teammates "discover" (add their data to the command map/net) other objects/subjects within an X meter range. Additionally, all other deployable and nondeployable sensors will function properly and "discover" objects/subjects based on their respective ranges. All players will have the cumulative knowledge of anything and everything that is "discovered" on the sensor net.

With a destroyed/damaged sensor dish, all teammates still "discover" (add their data to the command map/net) other objects/subjects within a range, but this range would be reduced to X-Y meters. All other deployable and nondeployable sensors will be temporarially disabled (until the sensor dish is repaired), and therefore they will add no data to the sensor net. All players will still have the cumulative knowledge of anything and everything that is "discovered" on the sensor net.

How's that sound? Comments?
---/quote---

Regarding the IFFs, I feel that everything that's "discovered" on the sensor net should have an IFF. The presence of IFFs is more valuable at longer distances. For example, a sniper is more likely to remain concealed behind a hilltop if there isn't a huge red arrow pointing at his head.
At shorter ranges, I feel that the absence of an IFF would be more of an annoyance than anything else, since there really is no difference in the amount of information you are provided -- as someone else stated, you will know that he/she's any enemy by elimination.

As far as the flag indicator goes, I am strongly opposed to the idea of having an indicator in any condition. Hiding with the flag was a major part of Tribes strategy, and I have no idea why it would be desirable to destroy this element. I think the flag trail is good enough as it is.

heh now ive heard everything, forget skiing, forget jetting, discs, open terrain etc etc.. flag hiding is 'teh' cornerstone of tribeness :P

heh now ive heard everything, forget skiing, forget jetting, discs, open terrain etc etc.. flag hiding is 'teh' cornerstone of tribeness :P

Really? Who said that?

Edit: I agree with Tycho on this one (and his post below).

Saying creativity is "the" cornerstone of tribes is better, I think. It can apply to everything in the game; skiing, a gun that shoots explosive disks, open maps, etc. After three years of playing with a flag indicator, I can tell you that it removes the element of creativity from capping, reducing it to going fast from the back :shrug: .

Hm do sensors have range? Ranged sensors was useful in older tribes games.

I understand people overlooked the usefulness of sensors. In one map I made for tribes 2, without mannual deployable sensors to extend the search range for base turrents, they were useless. My map had encouraged players to deploy remote sensors so turrents are 100% more effective. Not many people even now know sensors are very useful for enermy spotting and extending range of turrets.

Although I wish this sensor system could carry on, if people don't know how to use it properly, may as well just scrap that and adopt this new system.

It would be cool if the new sensor system still have range.

Idea

Make flag finder icon have a range. So that people cant see where flag capper is from base to base. This way, it would still be very usefull, but only for the people who accualy decide to be flag chasing. You would be able to see if they are turtling in base, and if they are hiding in something (say bushs and such) if you get within range the flag finder icon would show on the capper. This way if you lost the capper, you would still have to go out and seach for him. And not every single member of your team would know where, and how far away the enemy capper is at all times (so long as your sensor is up).

I think we should wait till beta to deside whether or not we want the flag iff to go. Cause as of right now, no one here who complains about it has played the game. Personally, I think its gay as hell, but you may need it for some ungodly reason.


Just wait and see.

*shrug I like it actually. And the fact of the matter is if players want nostalgia the mapmakers won't put a sensor in the level, and if you want to focus on teamwork even when you can see the enemies they'll put it in a highly defended spot.

This makes the sensor an important feature in mapmaking and allows more user customization then before...

I see the uses of your system but playing T1/T2 for a while i'd definatly push for no flag finder. It lets cappers use alot more improv and the opposing team has to actually chase instead of intercept or snipe cross map.


The flag finder did make cap routes a little more predictable and slightly less intersting on some maps. However, regardless of the flag finder, back-to-front routes were almost always more effective than front-to-back cap routes. The flag finder just made the less-effective cap routes even less effective.

How the flag finders impact T2 Classic:

1. Cappers have to spend more time preparing for better routes. Impromtu grabs usually fail unless you had full health and could disk-jump away. The disk-jump grab was still somewhat effective, especially on smaller cluster maps.
2. Standoffs/turtles ended quicker and teams got more flag returns in general.
3. Sniping and chaining at a medium distance became more practical way to chase cappers.
4. Sniping at a long distance comprised only an incredibly small number of capper kills. Many maps had hills/mountains that prevented this tactic anyway.
5. Most maps still had plenty of caps and capouts occured regularly on some maps.
6. Escorting was easier and there were usually more people involved, on both teams, on midfield scrambles for a loose flag.

The real loss is of the free-form impromtu capping and the need to guard against the less-effective front-to-back routes. In exchange for this loss, you get less/shorter flag standoffs and easier-to-coordinate flag defense and escorting.

In the end, I'd rather have the flag indicators on at all times. Making escorting easier and ending standoffs sooner offset the other loses.

so keep your sensor repaired and dont worry about it nord ;)

I like this change, good job dev team.

so keep your sensor repaired and dont worry about it nord ;)

If T:V plays anything like DX or Stonehenge, that sensor isn't going to be up much, regardless of my ability to repair it. :)

I can repost in here what I wrote in the TW video thread about indicators, if you want

I already did foo

well, t2 SH and DX yea. play T1. its easily repaired on DX, + youve got 2 of them.

fact of the matter is, you have the choice of keeping it up and having the lovely IFF and flag icon, or losing both. Which also depends on how much the other team cares about their own iffs. jeez i think i read that somewhere.

:closet:

Leave the flag indicator in the game..if you leave it out, it's only a matter of time until the cheaters put it back in. Better to let everyone benefit from it than just the cheaters.