Grappling Hook idea... (maybe ofn?)

I'm sure they once tried open flight, but after trying it, limited the jetpack.

So yes. Thankfully, we have past examples to teach us, therefore we need not try again.

I'm sure they once tried open flight, but after trying it, limited the jetpack.

So yes. Thankfully, we have past examples to teach us, therefore we need not try again.Yea, I can see it now...

(alpha/beta testing - pre-release)
T1 Dev #1: I'm setting the player's energy to unlimited.
T1 Dev #2: I got an idea.. why don't we limit how much energy they have, and have it "recharge" after a couple seconds. It will give them something to get good at...
T1 Dev #1: WTF man?!? Why are you wanting to nerf it already?!?
T1 Dev #2: I just think it's a good idea... especially since we both know it wouldn't take too much skill to just hold down the jet key non-stop.
T1 Dev #1: No, I'm not nerfing the player's energy. It WILL be unlimited... until we hear a bunch of complaining, piss a lot of players off (mainly long-term dedicated fans), make them think the game is newbified with super easy movement, and possibly/more-than-likely scare off a large portion of people before I decide to finally "nerf it" down to make the player actually have to get good and learn to conserve their energy.

...

lol [at val's idea of humor]

:(

That's ludicrous.

I'm talking game design back in the stage where they've got the Darkstar engine from Starsiege, and someone has come into the room with an FPS design document to be critiqued. You could easily imagine the possiblity of free-flight being discussed or even tested on the engine, prior to the coding of the current flight model.

And if they came into the entire affair absolutely set on a limited-flight model, they still wouldn't have known the exact values, or how they should nerf the jetpack. It analogs to this case in a similar way: you're assuming that the grappling hook requires a line tension that limits it to low velocity use.

I don't see how this assumption is warranted. Why does this make the design better? You claim it's for skill, but all I see is the same sort of retarded caps that T2 set on the player speed. They claimed it was for "teamwork skill."

If you're going to argue, at least argue instead of resorting to stupid strawmen. I can't believe this even got into a debate about the jetpack design phase, which is ultimately irrelevant to our current discussion.

I don't see how the grappler could benefit. The restriction basically assures that grappling only takes place at low velocities. That is a restriction of use, not an increase in possible uses.

You can't assume it's an addition, because it's a restriction. You can't turn my argument back around and use it against me, because you're still preemptively nerfing the available power of the grappler, even if it turns out to be beneficial.

Try it at full power before you limit its capabilities.
That is exactly what this thing isn't about. You would be able to use the grappler at high speeds, but the faster you go, the more skill it would require. (note that the maximum of this skill is pretty low on the overall scale).

Like I said, this would only restrict the use of the grappler when it shouldn't be used anyway. If you don't want to see a capper going 300+mph, turning around, grappling the first thing he sees slingshotting himself towards his base and getting rid of his chasers at the same time, you'll have to figure out something to prevent this pretty much game breaking aspect. In this case, we came up with rope tension because a popup message saying 'The devs don't want you to do this, try something else!' wouldn't fit properly.

Think of it like this: when you're moving slow, you have unlimited use of the grappler. But when you reach high speeds, you will be unable to use the grappler in ways that would abuse your high speed. It's just a little skill requirment to being able to drastically change your direction when going fast, and I see nothing wrong with this.

It's not a skill requirement. Why do people see this as a skill? It's simply a restriction. If there is a line tension, how am I supposed to pull back on the tension and maintain my speed? Where is the skill in an artificial cap?

Isn't already hard enough to aim and time your motion at such high speeds? Why are we punishing good grapplers before they even exist?

Like I said, this would only restrict the use of the grappler when it shouldn't be used anyway. If you don't want to see a capper going 300+mph, turning around, grappling the first thing he sees slingshotting himself towards his base and getting rid of his chasers at the same time, you'll have to figure out something to prevent this pretty much game breaking aspect.

That's like putting a speed cap on skiing, and we all know how much fun that is.

It's not a skill requirement. Why do people see this as a skill? It's simply a restriction. If there is a line tension, how am I supposed to pull back on the tension and maintain my speed? Where is the skill in an artificial cap?

Isn't already hard enough to aim and time your motion at such high speeds? Why are we punishing good grapplers before they even exist?
Anyone who can hit a hill will be able to do a 180° turn with the grappler.

That's like putting a speed cap on skiing, and we all know how much fun that is.
Not really. Even if it was, it would be as if the cap was 300+ mph, or something where you can't really tell the difference anymore.

Anyone who can hit a hill will be able to do a 180° turn with the grappler.

Really? Cause I imagine the man slinging too far and yanking away his velocity as the grappler keeps him from moving forward. It is, after all, elastic.

i agree with Z

don't start putting restrictions on the grappler until you know how hard it is to use. A skill curve is good, but you can't make it too steep or it's just not fun. The grappler seems like it'll be a hard thing to balance as there's a fine line between overpowered and useless.

yeah, probably going 300+ kph to hit a tree you would have to lead it more than a whole screen. so thats gunna be near impossible.

i agree with Z

don't start putting restrictions on the grappler until you know how hard it is to use. A skill curve is good, but you can't make it too steep or it's just not fun. The grappler seems like it'll be a hard thing to balance as there's a fine line between overpowered and useless.
We're not putting restrictions on the grappler, that's the devs' job. We're just doing some brainstorming as to how to balance it if it gets overpowered. As I said before, our job is to have sand in our pussy (even if we won't with the original game) and find ways to remove it. If the grappler can't be used in these situations anyway, then I don't want the devs to waste time on redundant restrictions.

If you were to put a *stress meter* on it, the only way to reduce the stress on the grapple is to go slower. I don't see how forcing people to go slower increases skill. On the contrary, one of the key determinations of skill in tribes (well T1) is how fast you can go.

Actually, the "stress meter" assumes a static line once the grapple is deployed.

I don't believe that is the case. I think it reels in as you approach the grapple, keeping the line taut, until you start moving in a circle with the grapple at the center... or putting force on the grapple. Think of it as spring loaded recovery with a friction brake. As long as you aren't actively putting tension on the line it reels in, the moment the line reverses direction, it locks up.

You can manually shorten the line, (beileive it was thrax that said this) by holding the fire button. This will tighten your arc, speeding you up... etc.

As Theta (and others) have said, the only way that I see to implement a "tension break" on the line is to effectively limit the speed at which you can use the grapple.

If you were to put a *stress meter* on it, the only way to reduce the stress on the grapple is to go slower. I don't see how forcing people to go slower increases skill. On the contrary, one of the key determinations of skill in tribes (well T1) is how fast you can go.
Wrong. The tension is not only a function of speed, but also of the angle determined by the line of the rope and your movement's vector. A larger angle results in less tension, which means that at higher speeds you'd need to take more careful aim to pull off a succesful turn, but it would still be possible.

Amadeus, I don't think that it's a static line after deployment, rather a auto-recovery till the line is taut.

You're not going to get a line snapping jerk if the line reels in as you approach the grapple point. It's going to reel in until you pass the tangental point, lock and start swinging you on your arc.

A tension break in that situation is the same thing as a speed cap on using the grapple.

This is the possibly (although I probably just have a bad memory) the stupidest thing I have seen on this forum yet. Passionately arguing to nerf a weapon you haven't even played with yet. You guys don't even know exactly how it's going to work.

This is the possibly (although I probably just have a bad memory) the stupidest thing I have seen on this forum yet. Passionately arguing to nerf a weapon you haven't even played with yet. You guys don't even know exactly how it's going to work.
That is exactly why we're trying to figure out how it could work under some circumstances.



And Vapor, you're right in that if it's going to automatically reel you in, then the rope will break sooner or later. Not sure if you can't keep the rope the same length though...

That is exactly why we're trying to figure out how it could work under some circumstances.

What's the point if they're going to have an open beta? t's absolutely useless to argue over it now. Besides I'm certain the developers have a much better idea of balance than you guys.