In-Depth Pack Toggle discussion thread [+pics]

We all know the background, packs right now are one shot blasts that use up all your juice.

Let's look at the reason behind this before anything.
Packs have their own energy, packs are MUCH more useful (so much in fact they provide a huge advantage over someone who is naked).


Now from what it looks like, they have pack toggle off for all packs b/c it looks like they're trying to be consistant.

Consistancy is great, but I don't think it's always necessary. I don't think it'd be overly confusing if some packs toggled and some did not.

Now let's run down each pack with the pros and cons of each concerning the toggle. To make this more tolerable and to grab your attention with shiney graphs I will use mspaint demonstrations.

http://www.phoenix-blaze.com/~sirlucius/TV%20packs/epack.gif
Obviously I think having an epack toggle is a bad idea. Really what you're getting is free energy that you can use and save for whenever you want. Plus I don't even think the burst would be long enough to warrent a toggle anyways.

Bottom line: No Toggle for Epack


http://www.phoenix-blaze.com/~sirlucius/TV%20packs/rpack.gif
While the panic set in by having the run all over trying to spread your reapir is not very fun, added to it is the fact that picking up a reapair pack after a base rape means you have to wait for it to fully charge. I don't know how long it is, but even 3 seconds can matter in a game of tribes.

However, the toggle has problems of its own. If the pack repairs the person it's equiped with when it's on, you basically have a free bank of health that's almost always charging. You'd have to remove this effect and only have the active repair other things, which is kind of sad.

So I'm torn on this one. For personal use, no toggle is better, but for base repair, a toggle is more useful and fun.


http://www.phoenix-blaze.com/~sirlucius/TV%20packs/spack.gif
Ahhh the shield pack. This is the one all the arena players are talking about. Really it's more like armor now than a full out shield though.

The no toggle seems very newbish to me. It has it's own energy reserve, but the shield protects your for a duration I think, thus it's more like a firing delay than a reserve (I beilive all packs are like this, correct me if I'm wrong).

If you made it a toggle, you'd have it drain energy, so it'd be more like the shield pack of yore. Personally, I'd like it that way better, but I think the idea behind it is to give a newbie protection for a duration.

I think when the toggle is off, the new sp is more about luck than it is about skill. I'm very biased about that b/c I know about energy managment, but I'd still prefer a toggle on this one.

http://www.phoenix-blaze.com/~sirlucius/TV%20packs/apack.gif
It's hard to come up with scenarios for this one. How it sounds now it'd be useful for a suicide run. But even if there was a toggle I don't think it would see too much use just by the nature of the pack.

So might as well just leave it as it is, but if someone thinks otherwise speak up.




Alight, this is a discussion thread, so discuss. Try to look at each pack individually and consider how they will be abused both with and without a toggle.

IMO the non toggleable shieldpack is better. Yeah it takes skill to be able to toggle it, but it will take more skill to time consecutive uses of the shield pack. ie: newbie uses shieldpack to avoid the knife, then gets fudgeed 10 seconds later w/ a disc. Veteran uses shieldpack to avoid a disc, then is able to time the recharge effectively and use it to avoid full damage from another disc.

The fact about consistancy is the only argurment I can imagine they have for having all packs non-toggleable. They want to make it intutive, and its not intuitive to have two packs non-toggleable and two packs toggleable. I'm split on this issue now: I used to want toggleable, but now I think non-toggle might be alright. Beta will decide for me.

The shield and speed pack are perfect examples of why you shouldn't have toggle.

With the shield pack: A decent person will turn the pack on just before they get hit, thus only recieving 1/4 damage. They'll turn off the pack, pack reloads, turn it back on. Another shot in, again only 1/4 damage. Do you really want someone to only get 1/4 damage all the time? With not being able to toggle, a person has to think of when a good time to use the shield. If they choose a wrong time, the person will just wait and shoot them after the shield energy wears off.

Speed pack: Same situation as shield pack. Do you want someone to have rapid fire and rapid running all the time? Or just in short 5 sec bursts?

The shield and speed pack are perfect examples of why you shouldn't have toggle.

With the shield pack: A decent person will turn the pack on just before they get hit, thus only recieving 1/4 damage. They'll turn off the pack, pack reloads, turn it back on. Another shot in, again only 1/4 damage. Do you really want someone to only get 1/4 damage all the time? With not being able to toggle, a person has to think of when a good time to use the shield. If they choose a wrong time, the person will just wait and shoot them after the shield energy wears off.


Yet this how the old shield pack worked and it worked fine.

I think the main problem has to do with the pack not drain your suit juice. In Tribes 1 it was a tradeoff: you trade mobility for an extra feature when you get a pack (except for the epack) so that using any pack has an overall drawback. To quote someone else: "you give some and then you get some"

Here however, there's no drawback at all! You get health, armor or whatever at no cost! There is no management needed; you just turn it on and that's it. This to me looks a lot more like a quake quad-damage than a Tribes pack. Heck, the way things are going, why even bother calling it a pack?

Now don't get me wrong, I think those packs could add a lot to the gameplay, the active/passive thing is a great idea but having them no take energy from your suit just makes them all that more difficult to balance since there is absolutly no drawback from using them...

Max

Yet this how the old shield pack worked and it worked fine.


As you said, in t1/t2 you can't fly when you have shield, you can now. So the tradeoff is you can only use it for 5 secs at a time, then have to wait say 8 secs before the pack is full again.

As you said, in t1/t2 you can't fly when you have shield, you can now. So the tradeoff is you can only use it for 5 secs at a time, then have to wait say 8 secs before the pack is full again.

That's not a tradeoff. Not being able to use it later is not a tradeoff. That's like saying that using a repair kit is a tradeoff because you won't be able to use it later, except in the case of the repair kit you only had one.

What I'm saying is that there is no cost to using the shield pack. You don't loose anything for the extra armor during that 5 seconds. You're much stronger but you're not any slower/low on ammo/low on energy/(insert any tradeoff you can think off). To me this seems less fun, but mainly much more complicated to balance.

Max

Well, just by taking the shield pack instead of an epack, you are trading off more energy for more life. If you fight someone with an epack, they have an advantage of being able to fly above you. Being able to fly higher in tribes is a serious advantage.

Yet this how the old shield pack worked and it worked fine.

I think the main problem has to do with the pack not drain your suit juice. In Tribes 1 it was a tradeoff: you trade mobility for an extra feature when you get a pack (except for the epack) so that using any pack has an overall drawback. To quote someone else: "you give some and then you get some"

Here however, there's no drawback at all! You get health, armor or whatever at no cost! There is no management needed; you just turn it on and that's it. This to me looks a lot more like a quake quad-damage than a Tribes pack. Heck, the way things are going, why even bother calling it a pack?

Now don't get me wrong, I think those packs could add a lot to the gameplay, the active/passive thing is a great idea but having them no take energy from your suit just makes them all that more difficult to balance since there is absolutly no drawback from using them...

Max


I agree that the sysm does feel a lot like a power up more than a pack (like quad damage).

No suit energy is drained, but we leanred that lesson from the epack. Everyone used the epack b/c it had no negetive effects.

I think they're trying to keep that in mind (no direct sacrafices for using a pack).

What I'm saying is that there is no cost to using the shield pack.

The cost in using it against that blaster shot is perhaps not being able to use it against that mortar round 4 seconds later. Shield management has gone from "turn it on when you get shot at, turn it off after you get hit" to "turn it on when you REALLY need it". The only thing that kept the shield from being overpowered was the fact it drained your suit energy limiting your mobility. With the new one, you're free to continue to dodge those pesky discs, but take LESS damage when someone actually hits you with one.

The passive/active design requires the damage reduction in passive mode, while the short high damage resistance of the active mode requires some way in which you are vulnerable. The only way through the old shield was brute force, (or the elf). The way through the new shield is to outplay the user.

Now all of the packs are useful even if you aren't activating the pack. In T1/2, only the epack was useful when you didn't activate it (you couldn't, but thats not the point). Now every pack is useful. If you want more jetpack energy, get epack. Want to have autorepair, repair pack. Want less damage to you, get shield. Want to run faster, get speed pack.

The drawback of using a repair pack, is that you can fly higher, or run faster since you don't have a epack or speed pack. The drawback of using a speed pack is that you can't fly higher, or have more life since you don't have a epack or rep pack. etc.

This is all assuming that the game doesn't suck. If it sucks, then it doesn't matter does it? :p

The Speed Pack
I think the speed pack is going to be one of the most useful packs in the game. Right now, people dont have any experience with a pack like this in Tribes so they just assume its useless. But I think that it will be the premier LD pack. So much of LD is played on the ground, that the extra walking speed will be a huge advantage. Also, because LD are there to provide short, intermittent, bursts of heavy fire on potential cappers, I think the fire rate boost will be a boon to them.

The energy pack is not a requirement for LD in T1 or T2 as it is. The only reason it is so widely used is because there are no other viable options (and you can use the laser with it). I think slowly throughout the progression of the game youll see more people turning to different packs for LD (especially the speed pack).

The shield pack
I dont think we'll see much change on the shield pack from T2 to T:V other than for base rapers. I think it will be an excellent pack for them, because it doesnt have the energy disadvantages of the T1/T2 shield pack.

The energy pack
I dont think anyone has the energy pack quite pegged for the role it will actually play in T:V. Sure, the drift boost can be used to compensate for mistakes, but that is the exact same as using your "strafe" jets in T1 or T2. Yeah you can compensate for mistakes; but if you do you are automatically taking away from your total potential energy and slowing your route regardless. That said, I think the energy pack is going to have a much smaller effect on T:V than it did in T1/T2. Its power is just not that great anymore.

repair pack
It sounds like the repair pack is going to be about the same as it was in T1/T2, except that there will be a possibility of support roles using it more extensively. My guess is that each defense will have 1-2 people running around with repair packs keeping everyone's health rate up. Though, I could be wrong here-If maps are too fast (aka snowblind) or too slow (aka any orginal T2 map) the repair pack will be essentially useless.

I agree that the sysm does feel a lot like a power up more than a pack (like quad damage).

No suit energy is drained, but we leanred that lesson from the epack. Everyone used the epack b/c it had no negetive effects.

I think they're trying to keep that in mind (no direct sacrafices for using a pack).

I agree, but I don't see how the new system makes it any different.

In the old system ,most of the pack had their use. Repair to fix stuff, shield for HoF (sometimes, I've been out of the competition loop for quite a few years), ammo if you want to spam, energy for the capper.

In the new system, I don't see the other packs being all that usefull offensively regarless. The shield pack would offer you some extra armor, but an epack would still get you out of arm's way faster.

I can appreciate that they're trying to give an offensive role to all the packs, but IMHO that's not the way to do it. Some packs are inherently defensive ones. I can also appreciate that by going with the "power up" road they're trying to attract gamers from your main stream fps; quake, UT, etc....

Max

I think all packs now have both Offensive and Defensive enhancements. Which is really saying something.

There is an advantage to capping w/ each
E-pack.. obvious
Sh-pack.. grab and activate or vice versa
Rep-pack.. obvious
Speed-pack.. grab flag and activate or vice versa

There is an advantage to HO w/ each.
Camping base? bring a shield pack and activate it when they come to clean you out or bring the rep kit. OR speed pack to be more mobile/deadly when you get in.
Spamming? Speed Pack
Gotta get there quick? Epack

There is an advantage to LD/MD with each.
Chasing? Epack or speedpack to whore
Snipe-D? Repair pack or Speed pack
Gen-D? Medium with a shield?
Repair jerk/turret monkey? reppack

You can HoF with any of them (maybe not E) but chain whoring SpeedPack HoF would be win + dodging morts etc.

The thing most people aren't concentrating on.. Which is even bigger than the pack shift... is the deployable shift.

---> Everyone has a dep slot.
So I could rape and bring my own turret or inv.
Do we still need dedicated farmers? Everyone deploys one thing and goes about thier business...

Shield isn't an inherently Defensive or Offensive pack. It has it's uses, HD have been known to shield, and HO use the shield more, but stealing a repair pack is also a time honored tradition among HO.

I see the Shield being used by just about the same people it's used by now... but perhaps not in the numbers seen in T1/T2, as other packs will have just as much utility. The only REAL change I see is that HO are going to be stealing repair packs more often, as the shield is a tad less ... powerful. IOW, they'll need something to repair them up after insertion, so they can survive to hold the generators/inventories/base.

Shield not useful for offense? If the light really is super light (and super weak), a capper could use the shield pack to help him survive longer.

Hmm... it's a tossup between the Shield and Repair packs, at least till beta Theta. Repair's constant up, vs shield's damage reduction.

Yet this how the old shield pack worked and it worked fine.

I think the main problem has to do with the pack not drain your suit juice. In Tribes 1 it was a tradeoff: you trade mobility for an extra feature when you get a pack (except for the epack) so that using any pack has an overall drawback. To quote someone else: "you give some and then you get some"

Here however, there's no drawback at all! You get health, armor or whatever at no cost! There is no management needed; you just turn it on and that's it. This to me looks a lot more like a quake quad-damage than a Tribes pack. Heck, the way things are going, why even bother calling it a pack?

Now don't get me wrong, I think those packs could add a lot to the gameplay, the active/passive thing is a great idea but having them no take energy from your suit just makes them all that more difficult to balance since there is absolutly no drawback from using them...

Max

Because I don't think a pack should be a tradeoff. It should be an asset, at all times. Otherwise what's the point of it? The way packs were in Tribes a team with packs had very little advantage over a team without packs. I think that's ridiculous. I don't want to throw on a shield pack and be disadvantaged outdoors.. what's the point of it then? Sure, I can survive a disc hit without taking damage, but then I have no energy.. and now I'm screwed because no mobility in Tribes = death.

The bottom line is that the give and take philosophy is stupid. Armor should have a give and take philosophy.. because they are role-based. A pack should always be useful, because the whole point is that it is supposed to provide an advantage. If it gives and it takes, it doesn't really provide much of an advantage, does it?

However, on another matter, you're simply wrong. To say that a shield pack in T:V wouldn't require management is ludicrous. In fact, it would require more management than in Tribes, because now all of a sudden when you switch it on.. you have to go through the full cycle before it can be used again. Well, isn't that interesting? So now you can't just turn it on and off, but you need to be more intelligent about when you use it. It's easy to know when to turn on a shield pack in Tribes.. if you're going to be hit with a disc, you turn it on, and then you turn it off again to conserve it. It's not quite so easy when you can't just turn it on and off like a light switch.

I agree, but I don't see how the new system makes it any different.

In the old system ,most of the pack had their use. Repair to fix stuff, shield for HoF (sometimes, I've been out of the competition loop for quite a few years), ammo if you want to spam, energy for the capper.

In the new system, I don't see the other packs being all that usefull offensively regarless. The shield pack would offer you some extra armor, but an epack would still get you out of arm's way faster.

I can appreciate that they're trying to give an offensive role to all the packs, but IMHO that's not the way to do it. Some packs are inherently defensive ones. I can also appreciate that by going with the "power up" road they're trying to attract gamers from your main stream fps; quake, UT, etc....

Max

Who says that the goal is to get away from the enemy as quickly as possible? If that's what you want, I'm sure an e-pack is what you are looking for.. but what about for other offensive roles? If I'm engaging the LD around the flag, why the hell would I want an e-pack? A shield pack, or an adrenaline pack would be far more useful for me.

The only pack that is inherently defensive in T:V that I can see, at this point in time, is the repair pack. And even that is arguable. It may have quite a few offensive uses that haven't been thought of.

In Tribes the shield pack was mostly defensive oriented, because the whole idea was to eliminate damage.. but without energy you don't expect to go anywhere. That's why the shield pack was an effective tool by HO who could go base to base without the extra energy.. once you got inside the base, you never expected to move, so you turned on the shield and used it to survive a little longer. In T:V, it's a far more useful tool for offense.. because now you can still jet around while having the advantage of the shield pack.

The only pack that is inherently defensive in T:V that I can see, at this point in time, is the repair pack. And even that is arguable. It may have quite a few offensive uses that haven't been thought of.

Constant repair would probably be right along side the shield for HO. Definately competitive if not definiative for "take and hold" style HO, while Shield is probably better for "rape and respawn" type HO.

It might come down to playstyle.