In-Depth Pack Toggle discussion thread [+pics]

Constant repair would probably be right along side the shield for HO. Definately competitive if not definiative for "take and hold" style HO, while Shield is probably better for "rape and respawn" type HO.

It might come down to playstyle.

I didn't mean to imply it didn't have any offensive use. The shield pack in Tribes was inherently defensive, but it still had some offensive use. Just that it was far more useful in a defensive role than an offensive role. I was just trying to say that the repair pack is the only pack that sounds like it is more useful defensively than offensively.

Then I guess we all have a different vision of what Tribes should be.

I'm just sad to see a trend in the gaming industry to simplify things to the maximum in order to "attract newbies".

A lot of these changes are taking away management aspects of the game that were great. Why bother calling them packs when they're really power ups. I'm starting to wonder what, besides the jetpack and our famoust weapon, makes Tribes different from all the other FPs out there.

This new Tribes seems to be moving away from the old multilayered fps and toward your regular run-and-gun fps. Hopefully the beta will prove me wrong...

Max

Yet this how the old shield pack worked and it worked fine.No, it's not how the old shield pack worked. The old shield pack still penalized you by taking the damage you would have sustained off of your energy instead of off of your health. Since packs are not tied to your suit energy in T:V that gives you just a 1/4 health penalty, which is not enough. I think that saving you from 1/4 damage all the time and the ability to be 3/4ths invulnerable for a short time is plenty powerful, and has plenty of room for being used skillfully or not skillfully.

No, it's not how the old shield pack worked. The old shield pack still penalized you by taking the damage you would have sustained off of your energy instead of off of your health. Since packs are not tied to your suit energy in T:V that gives you just a 1/4 health penalty, which is not enough. I think that saving you from 1/4 damage all the time and the ability to be 3/4ths invulnerable for a short time is plenty powerful, and has plenty of room for being used skillfully or not skillfully.

I guess what's bothering me is that I find it too simple to use (not to be mistaken with skilless); turn it on and forget about it.

Max

edit: I can however see how that would make it more usefull outside; it's the lack of a toggle that bothers me; but in the new system a toggle would make it too powerfull...

Then I guess we all have a different vision of what Tribes should be.

I'm just sad to see a trend in the gaming industry to simplify things to the maximum in order to "attract newbies".

A lot of these changes are taking away management aspects of the game that were great. Why bother calling them packs when they're really power ups. I'm starting to wonder what, besides the jetpack and our famoust weapon, makes Tribes different from all the other FPs out there.

This new Tribes seems to be moving away from the old multilayered fps and toward your regular run-and-gun fps. Hopefully the beta will prove me wrong...

Max

I just pointed out how packs actually increase some of the management aspects of the game. Are you going to argue my point, or simply ignore it?

You think it's sad that gaming companies are simplifying things that they make more sense and are more useful? Interesting..

What is your definition of a pack, Max? You've said multiple times that there is no point in calling them packs anymore.. since when is the definition of a pack "give and take"?

Hm....

Oh, the action of the pack IS inherently defensive. Shield and Repair both, since the actions they perform keep the user alive.

The Speed and Energy packs both are neither inherently offensive or defensive in thier actions, as they both increase mobility to dodge shots better... however, the Speed is the closer of the two to a "offensive" pack due to the volleyfire aspect.

An example of an inherently offensive pack using the above descriptions as a basis would be the Detpack from T2. It actively damaged other people.

Hm....

Oh, the action of the pack IS inherently defensive. Shield and Repair both, since the actions they perform keep the user alive.

The Speed and Energy packs both are neither inherently offensive or defensive in thier actions, as they both increase mobility to dodge shots better... however, the Speed is the closer of the two to a "offensive" pack due to the volleyfire aspect.

An example of an inherently offensive pack using the above descriptions as a basis would be the Detpack from T2. It actively damaged other people.

Yes, but the use of the shield pack is very effective in an offensive role. Just being able to take 1/4 the damage by having it on is incredibly effective for survival purposes, plus being able to turn it on when you engage in heavy combat. It is a defensive attribute, but it's highly effectively offensively.

What is your definition of a pack, Max? You've said multiple times that there is no point in calling them packs anymore.. since when is the definition of a pack "give and take"?

I'd first like to point out that I never said I had all the answer, or that I could do a better job than the devs are doing.

That said, imo a pack is something you USE. Just turning it on doesn't like I'm using it, it feels like I picked up a power-up and I have x amount of time to make the best use of it.

I never said there was no management in "turning it on at just the right moment" but it seems to me like the old system was "deeper" in it's use, you had to learn when to turn it on, but also how long to turn it on in order not to be a sitting duck.

Max

Still not getting what you mean by an "inherently" offensive or defensive pack.

The shield was inherently defensive in action, but was not definitive in either O or D roles.

Same with the repair pack.

:confused:
edit... definately need a better confused smiley.

That said, imo a pack is something you USE. Just turning it on doesn't like I'm using it, it feels like I picked up a power-up and I have x amount of time to make the best use of it.

You "use" adrenaline in Enemy Territory and it last a certain amount of time. I view adrenaline and packs in T:V as "powerups" because they don't fit into the category of "tools" like the previous packs.

I'd first like to point out that I never said I had all the answer, or that I could do a better job than the devs are doing.

That said, imo a pack is something you USE. Just turning it on doesn't like I'm using it, it feels like I picked up a power-up and I have x amount of time to make the best use of it.

I never said there was no management in "turning it on at just the right moment" but it seems to me like the old system was "deeper" in it's use, you had to learn when to turn it on, but also how long to turn it on in order not to be a sitting duck.

Max

Being able to turn it on and off at will makes it far easier to use, because you can turn it off immediately without repercussions. Whether it's deeper, I think, is arguable.. but having complete freedom does not = management.

I just thought of something; what if the packs still had drawbacks, but not energy related.

For exemple, turning on the shield lowers your RoF, turning on the epack takes away some of your manoeuvrability, speed pack would be semi-balanced since you depleat your ammo supply much faster, repair pack would also be semi-balanced.

This kind of system, to me, makes much more sense while at the same time solving some of the problems of the old system....

Max

edit: loucypher is right on the money, pack and power-up should be 2 different things; the health kit , for exemple, would be a power-up...

The "Drawback" to using one pack is that you don't have the others... cancellation design isnt the answer.

IMO the non toggleable shieldpack is better. Yeah it takes skill to be able to toggle it, but it will take more skill to time consecutive uses of the shield pack. ie: newbie uses shieldpack to avoid the knife, then gets fudgeed 10 seconds later w/ a disc. Veteran uses shieldpack to avoid a disc, then is able to time the recharge effectively and use it to avoid full damage from another disc.

Exactly. Last night, I wanted the toggleable shield, but almost 24 hours later, I've changed my mind. The T:V shield pack is powerful. REALLY powerful. In T1 or T2, when you got shot, you lost something important. You lost your energy, so when you were stripped of your toggleable shielding, that was it. You were doomed.

In T:V, there is no stripping of energy. You can literally go ahead and leap away. This makes the T:V pack FAR stronger than the T1 or T2 pack. If you gave us the ability to toggle it so that it only works when we choose, then you basically almost assure that veteran shieldpacks will NEVER take more than a quarter damage, because a combination of jump-jetting and use of the toggleable pack WILL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT HIM IN THE DOWNTIME EXCEPT BY THE GREATEST OF LUCK.

Capitalized for emphasis.

The same goes for the speed pack. If you let them toggle that, then every time they shoot, they'll shoot faster.

In other words, the super strong active abilities will face no downtime if you allow the players to cut the discharge short. In effect, toggleability assures players will forever use the active benefits of the pack.

As for the repair pack, I think *that* should be toggleable, because frankly, I don't want to waste a full charge to get rid of the minor damage that base items may have suffered. In exchange for this, the active ability shouldn't heal the user, since the passive is already constantly healing him. Make the discharge twice as fast as the charge and it'll be balanced.

Still not getting what you mean by an "inherently" offensive or defensive pack.

The shield was inherently defensive in action, but was not definitive in either O or D roles.

Same with the repair pack.

:confused:
edit... definately need a better confused smiley.

I disagree. I think the shield pack was very definitive in Tribes in a defensive role. It wasn't until much later in the game that it saw some offensive use by HO, and even then it had limited use. (This is not taking into account maps like Broadside, which were obsolete a few months into the game)

When I say it's inherently defensive, I mean that it is primarily a defensive tool. I'm referring to it's role in the game. Not whether it is a damaging tool, or one that protects the player, but whether it can be used by offensive players or defensive players.

The repair pack in T:V.. it's purpose is to repair. The regenerative effects in passive mode are likely far too slow acting to be useful in a combat situation. It's far more useful as a recovery tool, after said action. The active mode is really not useful in the least offensively, that I can see. Again, it's primarily a recovery tool. Your base is damaged, so you're there to repair it. This makes it a defensive tool.

The shield pack, in my opinion, is neither offensive nor defensive. It's equally useful in both situations, because it is a tool that is useful for combat and little else. Whether you are being attacked, or you are attacking.. the shield pack is there to protect you from damage. Obviously if you look at the actions of the pack you would say it's defensive in it's purpose, but when talking about the role that it can play in the game.. it's has both offensive and defensive capabilities.

I'm not looking at the packs stand-alone. In my opinion I don't think they should be looked at in that manner. A pack is only as effective when it's used effectively.

Hm...

I've always viewed the repair pack as primarily defensive, but not inherently so. Playing HO I usually switch out to a repair pack if nothing else is available, once I make it to the enemy base. I have to time when I repair myself, but I usually can last longer with the repair pack than by sticking with the Epack. I don't do HO-Shield much, so I usually switch out from repair pack only to shield if I can get it. I do play a lot of HO and use it there.

I think that in most roles the packs will have at least a minimum amount of use... and if managed/employed properly could excel in that role.

I just thought of something; what if the packs still had drawbacks, but not energy related.

For exemple, turning on the shield lowers your RoF, turning on the epack takes away some of your manoeuvrability, speed pack would be semi-balanced since you depleat your ammo supply much faster, repair pack would also be semi-balanced.

This kind of system, to me, makes much more sense while at the same time solving some of the problems of the old system....

Max

edit: loucypher is right on the money, pack and power-up should be 2 different things; the health kit , for exemple, would be a power-up...

Because, as I've said before, I don't like the give and take philosophy. The drawback of the packs, right now, is that while you have an energy pack, you can't take advantage of a shield pack. Or while you have a shield pack you can't take advantage of the adrenaline pack. That might not sound like much, but each pack has it's own advantages. If you are engaged with someone wearing an adrenaline pack, or a shield pack, and you are wearing an energy pack.. you don't think that one pack might provide an advantage over another?

The idea of power-ups is not accurate, because everyone can take advantage of them. Someone used the example of quad damage.. well.. quad damage can be used by one person, and then it respawns later. Everyone can use packs. Each one has an advantage to it, and each one is useful in different ways. In other words, each one has a specific role in the game. This is important, because if you're caught outside of that role, you will be at a disadvantage.

Another thing to note.. if your base goes down.. you will be at a disadvantage.

Hm...

I've always viewed the repair pack as primarily defensive, but not inherently so. Playing HO I usually switch out to a repair pack if nothing else is available, once I make it to the enemy base. I have to time when I repair myself, but I usually can last longer with the repair pack than by sticking with the Epack. I don't do HO-Shield much, so I usually switch out from repair pack only to shield if I can get it. I do play a lot of HO and use it there.

I think that in most roles the packs will have at least a minimum amount of use... and if managed/employed properly could excel in that role.

That's really the exception for the repair pack. In that case, you're almost defending the enemy base from.. well, the enemy.

Also in the "powerup" line... you can use multiple powerups at once... Haste, Regen, and QuadDamage all at once... if you're lucky enough to get a hold of all three... though I don't believe I've played enough Quake III to have seen it personally...

That's really the exception for the repair pack. In that case, you're almost defending the enemy base from.. well, the enemy.
Up until T:V... The repair pack may show up in harrassers/LO as well... and I wouldn't put it past HO to start out with it... Being able to perform your job (draw the enemy LD out of position or get to the enemy base fully healed) despite the occasional snipe or other damage (DJ) would help immensely in both jobs.

Think it's going to depend on exactly how (and how well) it works.